Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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As mentioned,…you have come out of the gate with a conflicting statement. Deo’s do not contain aluminum.
When I steer people in the direction, they need to go…. I start with…. having them list the issues they are trying to address….and then across from the issues…. listing a solution. Otherwise, you just fall into the horrible mommy-blogger potions…that wreck your skin and clothing, and you still stink.
Secondly….there are two thought processes involved….do I want to wreck my skin and acid mantle, and use high pH ingredients? Or do I want to take a more skin friendly approach and use lower pH ingredients. All components of the product must work together for the common goal (pH). You cannot pick and choose some high pH ingredients and some low, you must pick a theme and stick with it. Keep in mind….even an anhydrous product will create a pH once it is applied to skin. I think beginners forget this.
Note: Even considering Baking soda is a strong indication you do not understand skin and its pH. 😉
You listed 3 forms of Zinc, two are anti-microbial, and one is not, but is purported to ‘catch’ odor. Zinc PCA should be the most effective, granted I have never used a zinc in a deo (which means I view that there are much better ways to get said job done).
Adding vegetables oils….that is 100% mommy blogger lore. When you go back to your list of what the issues are…you will notice you wrote….’Sweating’. Adding an occlusive ingredient will only make this worse…. You should also notice….you did not write vegetable oils in your solution column. Coconut oil is the worst mommy blogger scam lore I have ever seen. They have no concept of science, and since they have heard that lauric acid is antimicrobial, they think it will help in a deo. NO! All you have to do is apply that grossness to your pits for a day….and you will understand. When lauric acid is bound in a triglyceride (aka coconut oil), it no longer has the same effect as free lauric acid. If you want the punch of lauric acid…you add monolaurin….NOT coconut oil… That is a lose lose…on every level. Note for extra credit…. Some really low-quality coconut oil will have a small amount of free lauric acid…because the coconuts were allowed to rot, before processing (yes fermentation is one way to break the triglyceride bond).
Essential oils at the rates they can be safely applied to skin, are weak anti-microbials, and often an irritant. Irritants are exacerbated when skin rubs on skin all day.
So….if you put an insoluble powder in your product….where is it gonna end up???? Do you want it there? Addition of insoluble powders is generally a result of making earlier formulation errors, like putting grease in the product. Skip the first error, and you can skip the second error. 🙂
So go back to your list of concerns… and focus on ingredients that are truly anti-microbial (I gave you one), and make sure you nail that. Then work on the other aspects on your list. Memba…if you add powders to sop things up….and your formula is full of grease….all the sopping it can do…..is already done!
Good luck.
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Where I am from, Oliwax LC has this inci: Cetyl Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Olivate
I have used it a few times…. but found it not much different, than using Cetyl palmitate, by itself.
I think I prefer just Myristyl Myristate in this space, (of course with fatty alcohols, etc). But as always….just depends on what you are trying to make…and accomplish.
Good Luck.
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The biggest jump I ever made in formulation….was when I cut all oils by 50-70%, and added polymethylsilsesquioxane and pentylene glycol to the bench, and I guess while we’re at it….let’s not forget D5.
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Oil and water don’t mix. Remind yourself of the solubility of honey and aloe.
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Thank you for saying this, as you may have shaved years off of a frustrating journey. In our societies where we are inundated with marketing stories…whom seek to blend fact with fiction, it is often difficult for those starting out, to be able to realize not everything is as it seems. 😉
The reason the government allows people to play in cosmetics without much in the way of regulation….is because beyond a few things like moisturization, they are not doing much. If they actually did…they would quickly move into the drug category.
Good luck.
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As shown….some of the commercial brands are dropping below 4. As you go down from 4, your subset of customers that might find some irritation will slowly climb. It also becomes a challenge to find an emulsifier that will be happy.
In a recent project, where I wanted to use an emulsifier that was happiest no lower than 4.5, I played with the higher pH’s, and found at 4.5 I still had the efficacy I wanted…but began to lose it at 4.9.
Now keep it mind…I am using a world class set of anti-microbials, not the garden variety type seen in internet/low grade commercial products. So, I would have to suspect, that a lesser slate would lose efficacy MUCH faster with pH modulations.
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You have missed my point…. completely. Insoluble powders transfer to dark clothing…. simply an inexcusable mess…. Especially considering the jobs they do…can be done better…with ingredients that don’t preclude you from wearing anything but white. 😉
Well, good luck with your project. Over and Out.
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Might be a good time to review my ALL TIME FAVORITE thread on this site. I like it soooooooo much…. I have considered changing my screen name to: ‘Guffawing Henry’
Especially read the 2nd entry from Pharma! Priceless.
mixing magnesium Hydroxide and bicarb of soda - Chemists Corner
chemistscorner.com
mixing magnesium Hydroxide and bicarb of soda - Chemists Corner
HelloI am trying to mix the above products but the mag keeps chrystallising, anyone any ideas to stop this happening please?thanks
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Um….if you think Zinc Ricinolate is anti-microbial….you misunderstood the ingredient. My comment about two of the three being anti-microbial…..excluded the Zinc Ricinolate. Not to say it doesn’t do something in deo….it does…. just now what the other forms of Zinc do.
A good deo…has many aspects….modes of action.
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There are not 10,000 experts.
Some of the ingredients you listed…are NOT soluble in either water or oil (aka: cream). 😉
What you consider ‘professional’ and what I consider professional….are probably very different. As I tell the beginners over and over…. sales does NOT translate to expertise!!!
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One place to start….is pH of final product. A lot of the ones that get dragged into conversations with beginners…are more oriented towards higher pH, and laundry detergent ranges.
However, Sodium Phytate and Phytic acid….will work down in the cosmetic range. They are interchangeible….just depending on if your finished product need pH up or pH down….each does the opposite. They are however…about the worst possible choice…should you be using something cationic… like a BTMS type emulsifier. They have four X the amount of (wrong) charges of say edta or my favorite… GLDA.
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That sound like a good starting place, it can be used from .01 to .3%. When I was working with it….I was using the higher end of the range…as I was trying to keep Vanillin from oxidizing and was using big piles of vanillin….like several percent! (I never succeeded….and this was in the combination with the most brilliant mind to ever grace this site!) Good news is… nothing worse than a big pile of Vanillin!
To evaluate your success….put finished product in a clear container….and in a sunny window….won’t be long…before you can evaluate success or failure.
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No….
Water ratio is irrelevant. Only thing that matters is phase orientation.
Your ONLY option is measuring you water phase…just prior to combining. Typically, that will be very close to your combined phase reading. You cannot dip your meter into an w/o and get a correct reading. Whatever you get…will just be a random number…. much like the number that appears…when you turn the meter on. ????
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Ahhhh…. We badly miscommunicated…I was referring to the inclusion rate of the green tea. All problems with it….go away with the proper inclusion rate of .01%, or even .001%. ????
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Nope…. .01% works far better than .1%. ????
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I suspect…. they mislabeled one of their ingredients…. with something like this:
lotioncrafter.com
CAS No. 223705-79-1, 7732-18-5 Honeyquat PF (Paraben Free) is a naturally derived quaternized conditioning agent (polyquaternium) made from honey with excellent moisture binding capabilities (far more powerful than glycerin) for use on skin and hair in both leave-on and rinse-off … Continue reading
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@chemicalmatt … Can use of PQ-37 handle shear in an emulsion?
I finally got mine (came by boat to Hawaii). I have found both approaches among vendors.
My preferred method…would be to put it in the water phase…. which means it will go through the emulsification shear process. This is generally 2 minutes for me, upon phase combination…and often 45 seconds at the very end, when the last couple of ingredients are tossed in.
Aloha. ????
Anyone can answer the question….of…. can PQ-37 handle shear.
(For that matter…. I can just go shear the PQ-37 & water slurry I made last night….for two min….and see if I lose viscosity.) BTW Matt…. NICE ingredient!
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Here is another more simple one:
Most of your ingredients you listed were ‘claim’ ingredients…(don’t do anything…just for marketing). You can still hang those as ornaments on a basic framework like this. You simply add them at .1%….so they don’t get in the way of the ingredients that are actually doing the work.
Good luck.
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Just to help point the ship towards the goal…here is a sample formula:
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It is 100% likely that not all the ingredients were listed. This is commonplace (not typically legal) unfortunately. That INCI…is not plausible….if you are looking for a homogenized product.
May I suggest you look at a large number of similar type ‘professional’ products, and you will find an INCI theme. Great place to learn. Figure out why they included each ingredient. 🙂
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Optiphen is ONLY a preservative. It has NO emulsifying properties. With this much bug food…. it will be severely challenged to meet its only purpose of preserving.
Honey is a poor humectant…and typically used in trace amounts for ‘claim’. Same with Aloe.
You are missing the fundamental pieces of conditioning…. Cationic ingredients and silicones.
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With Ceteareth-20 …. would there be any issue with playing well with the low HLB Monolaurin? I am using it as an active in deo, not really as an emulsifier….inclusion rate is .5%. The C-20 will only be used as a co-emulsifier. (My primary emulsion of Mont 202 and SPDMA….not as consistently stable as I want.)
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Usually keeping inclusion rate at .01% does a pretty good job. 🙂 Leaving it out all together, I found to be the best solution. Drink tea while formulating. But if something were to work….the aforementioned…would be a good choice.
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Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine