Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Issues in emulsion

  • Issues in emulsion

    Posted by hidden-123 on June 28, 2024 at 1:51 am

    I have been formulating a cream with emulsifiers and stabilizers like Montanov 68, Montanov 202, Emulgin SG, Dermofeel viscolid.

    After the cream is made, the feel is good, the texture is good, everything is good except for the formation of microfoam.

    The insight I got from the formulation is that the hlb of my cream is high and so now I’m thinking of adding a low hlb emulsifier to get rid of microfoam.

    What’s your take on this?

    hidden-123 replied 1 week, 5 days ago 4 Members · 8 Replies
  • 8 Replies
  • fareloz

    Member
    June 28, 2024 at 4:55 am

    Don’t you think you have too many emulsifiers in the products, like 3 already? Emulsifiers are surfactants and they can give “soapy” effect (some are well-known for this, like Olivem 1000). And you think of fighting the issue with … adding one more emulsifier to have 4?

    HLB has nothing to do with foaming, this metric is just a very rough assumption of how stable you emulsion will be using specific ethoxylated emulsifiers. Nowadays this metric is considered obsolete.

    I would suggest to keep your formula minimalistic. Just stick to one chosen emulsifier at reasonable concentration.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 28, 2024 at 11:09 pm

    You hit the nail on the head, supporting the Montanov’s with a kiss of anionic emulsifier. As they are inherently weak emulsifiers, this is just what the Doctor ordered. (And the model the mfg often recommends in the very small print, at least 3 pages deep….so it does not conflict with their earlier claims of the emulsifier being robust. 😂 )

    It does not take much of SSG to get the job done from as little as .25% to maybe up to .4% (I typically use the .25% rate.)

    Emulsifiers is more about using the right amount for your oil phase, than how many you use. Each time you add one (if you think it is necessary), you reduce in another area.

    Regarding soaping….that is usually as simple as adding a silicone oil…(dimethicone, or even cyclomethicone) will usually get the job done….often making the product feel better and perform better as a side benefit.

    Soaping is also often a sign of using too much emulsifier. Since you did not give formula….cannot speculate on the topic.

    There are numerous hacks for soaping….but dimethicone is the good old….’One and done’ solution. I think I have done a thread on this topic….if I find it… I’ll link it.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 28, 2024 at 11:15 pm

    Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

    Take a peek at this old thread.

  • hidden-123

    Member
    June 28, 2024 at 11:20 pm

    I agree Dimethicone is an anti-foaming agent but I can’t use it because it’s not natural.

    Like you can see the hlb of my cream is high, do you think decreasing that might help me with microfoam.

    • Graillotion

      Member
      June 29, 2024 at 12:56 am

      When I asked the brilliant minds…. about this very question, the response was…. it is not so much the addition of low HLB that fixes the problem, but the corresponding reduction of high HLB that you replace with low HLB. If that makes any sense to you.

      I would first and foremost…make sure you are not using too much emulsifier.

      Another old trick….is to put the Montanovs into the water phase vs the oil phase….and they tend (like OliveM 1000) to create a finer emulsion that soaps less. NOTE: Not all emulsifiers can go in the water phase.

      NOTE II: If using M 202 … make sure to heat phases to 85 C to get full melt.

  • Graillotion

    Member
    June 29, 2024 at 1:42 am

    I do have to say….the way I formulate…. soaping is simply a non-issue. So, it is a little hard for me to address.

    I did find this blurb from KK…and they are recommending using cetyl palmiate, aka cetyl esters. You could sure give it a try. They mention it in this marketing propaganda piece….listed as: Kester Wax K-48. I suspect the slightly more lovely Myristyl Myristate might do the same thing.

    Another ester wax…that often enhances things would be: Lauryl Laurate. Hard to go wrong with that one.

    Controlling Soaping in Your Emulsions without Silcones (kosterkeunen.com)

  • Zoya

    Member
    July 1, 2024 at 4:03 pm

    It’s difficult to give proper solution without knowing the formula… But here’s a few tips you can try: either adding Glyceryl Stearate or Cetyl Alcohol (0,5-2%) - keep in mind, it does change the viscosity of the product- or changing the compositon of your oil phase. I also wouldn’t use that many emulsifiers, usually 2 is enough to have a stable emulsion.

  • hidden-123

    Member
    July 5, 2024 at 1:41 am

    Thanks a lot, chemists. Your opinion and guidance going to benefit my research.

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