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BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

elirit said:

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers?  You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!

When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream.  It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions.   GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.

Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.

I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.

Yes it came out really thick lol. Do you think I should reduce percentage of eumulgin (1%) and then add cetyl esters? Where do you buy your cetyl esters? Again, grateful for all this knowledge. 

First, Eumulgin is a potent emulsifier, meaning a little…goes a long way.  Let me paste some info below:

• For a thick lotion or cream, start with 1.0% Eumulgin SG and up to 5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
• For a thinner product, start with 0.25% Eumulgin SG and 2.5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
• For a thin lotion, use 0.5% Eumulgin SG with 1% Glyceryl Stearate
• For a much thicker cream use 1.0% Eumulgin SG with 3.75% Glyceryl Stearate.
• Typical usage rate: 0.25 - 2.0%.

So you can see by the use rate, a little goes a LONG WAY.  So all by itself at 1%, you are getting a thick product, without even giving consideration to the M 68.  Any fatty alcohols…will keep adding to the thickness.

View the Eumulgin as a crutch for the Montanov’s.  .2% should be plenty.  Again you are using it to ward off phase inversions.  It is not known for creating amazing textures!

Since you have plenty of viscosity….Cetyl Esters is a nice selection vs C Alcohol….since it creates less viscosity.  I buy mine at LotionCrafters.

As with any project….trial and error…keep changing ratios one at a time….until you are happy.   My last cream….took 29 versions.

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Bo77 said:

I never worked with silica and EO, but I would say that any lemon/citrus family, peppermint and mint family, following with ” Italian spice mix” lol - rosemary, sage etc. That would be my personal guess.? Some EO you mentioning here are pretty strong and can be harsh on the skin. 

Thanx!

Yes…I have studied them top to bottom.  They make up a small percent of the overall product, and the gentlest ones are used at much higher levels than the harsh ones.

Been wearing this product daily….for almost two years.  365 days of summer where I live. 

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elirit said:

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers?  You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!

When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream.  It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions.   GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.

Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.

I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.

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suswang8 said:

Did you experiment with the more expensive types? Are you saying that you do not like gums at all, or that you just do not like xanthan?

They are called…. “GUM” for a reason.  I have never had a customer say….I wish your products had a more gummy feel to them.

I don’t know the full history, but I think gums came about to help stabilize emulsions, when we did not have some of the tools we have now.  You just put up with the negative aspects, in order to achieve stability.

Maybe you can start a new thread…. What and why is your favorite X-Gum alternative.

Also…. Why are you asking about gums?  If you state the formulating goal….the group will gladly kick in their thoughts and alternatives. (I mean this in the kindest way… If you state your objective, you will often get input that helps you make a break-through in your product development.)  If you just ask about gums…you’ll only get gum answers.  If you say…. How do I stabilize an emulsion, while enhancing the texture….you get a completely group of answers.

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Top US small scale suppliers (in my opinion):

Formulators sample shop…  Prices are better when you start ordering less than the minimum.

LotionCrafters…. Good selection, and quickest turnaround time…usually ships in 1-2 days…at worst 3 days.

Make your Own.buzz … good prices and have some materials I could not find at others….definitely the slowest ship times.  Best butter quality…as it all comes out of a Major International supplier from Denmark.

Nobleroots:  Top tier ingredients…but limited in what they have as small pak.  Super premium ingredients….ie:  Not all macadamia nut oil is of the same quality…they use Floratech as their supplier of this…and that is over the top premium.  Amazing customer service.

I’ll toss one more in….cuz they have good descriptions…and I get two ingredients here that I could not find elsewhere.  ‘Ingredients to die for’.  Definitely the worst ship times…so you have to anticipate your needs if using them.

Making Cosmetics…I did get something from them recently…good quality…but prices are typically not competitive.

Ebay and Amazon…..last place on earth you get ingredients.  Went down that bunny trail…early on.

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What country do you live in?

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Guessing that works as the same concept of Vanilla browners…in which case you can use

Sodium Metabisulfite

or

Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate

But these should not be used without extreme care and caution.  Not for amateurs.

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And yes…my cream has 3.

Mont 202
GSC
Arisoflex + Carbomer

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Yes…even the best (165) should have a co….

GSC / Emuligin

If your pH is low enough you can use 

Varisoft EQ 65

Some polymerics can be used as long as you keep electrolytes low.

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Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include.  I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’.  So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.

Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? Thank you

165 is hands down the best emulsifier….if you use extracts.

All of the alcohols have different feels…so buy small samples of several…and experiment.  

Cetyl is one of the most common.

If you want to make world class textured creams….just read all the comments on this site written by ngarayeva001

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165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s.  One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market.  It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.

I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant

Lotionpro 165 | Lotioncrafter

TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)

INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate

You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.

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suswang8 said:

Many higher-end, top-quality facial skin products use multiple types of hyaluronic acid.  I do believe that at least one published study found that very low molecular weight hyaluronic acid is pro inflammatory, so for the moment, I am steering clear.  I do wonder how these components differ in their function from humectants, such as glycerin, which also purportedly draw water to the skin.

Due to the liberties granted to us on the INCI (Below 1% liberties)…. Unless you work for those companies,…you have NO IDEA how little HA they are using.  I think they are using tiny amounts as a ‘claim’ ingredient.  IMO, there are better humectants.  Mark has a VERY valid point…about HA already being fully hydrated before it even touches your skin.  In full disclosure…I use HA in all but one product, and I view it as ‘label appeal’.

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Well….a tough question to answer…because choice of emulsifier totally changes the dynamics of the cream…. Mont 202 will make something lite like angel feathers (something you’ll never get to feel with Emuligin in there)…Mont 68…something very rich feeling.  Both of which will need an anionic to keep them stable (Emuligin or GSC).  The anionic you chose…will make the cream heavy and dense.  GSC will keep it much lighter.

The last two on your list…both contain Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, a minor surfactant…. which I have found adds to soaping vs helping to eliminate it.  Considering you started with the worst soaper in the biz… anything you will use…will seem like an improvement. The last two are essentially the same…Just one has a fancier INCI.

Why is the 165 series emulsifier not on your list?

Polymulse..again a completely different animal…and unless you are looking more towards a gel cream….I would consider this a ‘co’ product, and much less a primary.

If you are a beginner….the Montanov series can provide a lot of challenges.

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suswang8 said:

Did you experiment with the more expensive types? Are you saying that you do not like gums at all, or that you just do not like xanthan?

1) Don’t care for the texture they bring….
2) I am a anti-soaping fanatic.

….And hey….why not just just a polymeric….when it actually enhances the texture when used correctly?

I would say…I don’t use Xgum any more, just like I don’t formulate with e-wax…. So many better options.

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Don’t like any X-Gum….formulate around it.    

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Not sure I understand your question.

Did you mean antioxidant? 

A good water soluble chelator is Sodium Phytate.

I think any chelator would be a good substitute, since I am not aware that Vit. E works as a chelator.

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I think citric acid….is the go to product for lowering pH in emulsions.

Can’t speak for hand sanitizer….as I don’t work with it.

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@Cafe33

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Cafe33 said:

You know there is more to it than simply adding a fixative. 

My personal favorite, dissolve the oil in Aerosil 200 (Silicon Dioxide). It is an unbelievable fixative. I made anhydrous products which have been sitting in open air and the smell is still strong after 3 months or so. Similar products not using Silicon Dioxide lost scent after about a week.

My only hesitation is where to add the Aerosil/Fragrance composition, oil phase or water phase. I have not concluded which is better. And when I try to read more lately my head hurts. lol

I think I will give the Aerosil 200 a look…. @Cafe33 do you have a use rate….and technique? Should I just make a slurry with only the EO’s….? Or just toss the A200 into the general emulsion?

Have you experienced any abrasiveness with Aerosil 200? I see there are finer version….but A 200 is cheaper.

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Add dimethicone (to reduce soaping / whitening)

Choice of emulsifier makes a big difference.

Is that your entire ingredient list?  It only adds up to 7.5%.

It is difficult for the group to help you…when they don’t know what is in there.

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Well, I broke down and used the GSC last night, and can confirm that GSC makes a lighter pickup than Eumulgin, even though I used it at a higher rate.

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luiscuevasii said:

“LOVE” is the often found on the ingredient list, and It seams that It work well with anionic and catiónic products.

Well….that would be fun to go after….But somehow saying ‘made without LOVE’ just doesn’t come out right.  :p 

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jemolian said:

I think depends on the requirements, if there’s no or minimal electrolytes, body vs non-bodying, perhaps: 

• 165 type (Glyceryl Stearate and PEG-100 Stearate) for non bodying
• Emulium Delta MB (Cetyl Alcohol (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-75 Stearate (and) Ceteth-20 (and) Steareth-20) for bodying, rich velvet
• Sepinov EMT 10 for polymeric, silky

Are you aware of any US based re-packers that are selling Emulium Delta MB?