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ggpetrov said:

Why do you have to use two emulsifiers instead of one? As far as I know the Montanov 68 is a stand alone emulsifier, and it already has a built in stabilizer in the name of Cetostearyl alcohol. The same is with the GMS SE. 

Pretty safe to assume you have not worked with the Montanov 68?

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PhilGeis said:

Appreciate you challenge.  Assumje you’ve ruled out formaldehyde releasers (?).
pH 6 isn’t great for sorbic acid, and benzoate might be a better choice if you can ,lower the pH.  Is 6 cast in stone?
Suggest you start testing and see what breaks through.

Thank you @P@PhilGeis

I am keeping the pH around 6 due to use of Nicotinamide, USP grade.  So I like to be a hair below 6 and above 5.5.

Yes, I was trying to not use the F releasers.

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MarkBroussard said:

If the pH of the end product is below 6.0:

Gluconolactone + Sodium Benzoate + Phenethyl Alcohol as preservatives, and
Sodium Glutamate Diacetate + Propanediol and/or Pentylene Glycol as potentiators

Is Sodium Phytate and acceptable sub for Sodium Glutamate Diacetate?  I already use Propanediol in everything.  Thank you @MarkBroussard.

Is that doubling up the chelator?  (Gluconolactone and Sodium Glutamate Diacetate)

Will this work…if pH is just barely below 6?  Thinking 5.5-5.8?

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PhilGeis said:

Preservation of products with “colloidal oatmeal”  is an experiment that requires preservative testing your confident. and prob a round or 2 including aged product before your coonfident.  Llook at the similar products on  the shelvees now.  You’ve phenoxyethyl alcohol - why add less effective phenethyl - unless its for rose odor?   Additions should be the more water soluble.  Check  micro content of you oarmeal.

Thank you for your response @PhilGeis .

 I want to put my best foot forward before I test…so using the flawed logic of, the more components the better… Would you think Jeecide CAP-5, INCI: Phenoxyethanol (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Potassium Sorbate (and) Water (and) Hexylene Glycol, would be a good starting point?  I even thought about adding back Ethylhexylglycerin, so that I had everything the E 9010 had.  Again keeping in mind a pH of right around 6.0.

I looked at one of the leading producers of oat products, and all of their sample formulas were using E 9010.  Not that their examples make it right, just my observation.

I use the phenethyl for two reasons….yes I use rose absolute, and I feel this boosts the fragrance, but I was also under the impression that it did a better job on the head space than E 9010?  I might be wrong.  Since this is a cream, I thought headspace coverage would be important.

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Yes….emulsifiers are like snow flakes….No two are the same.  Each must be studied, and balanced, and selected for the project based on your goals and items included.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

Lol. Im sure you’re great at this. You are probably just a perfectionist

Weird question, because my amount of oil is so low, about 7.5%, is glycerin considered oil? Im not sure if I am supposed to count that as oil. Thank you.

Nope…does not count.

If you have an oil and water phase…..generally….EVERYTHING in the oil phase is considered.

Guessing your glycerine…is in the water phase….right?

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Some recommend….first work on your texture…just use the cheapest oil you can find…leave out all actives… and nail down the texture (if that is what you’re after).  
Granted….there are some popular products on the market with awful textures…so that is not what everyone is after.  Maybe I am unique…in chasing texture.  I just need my consumer to have two ‘Ah Hah’ moments….once when their finger touches the product, and a bigger one…when it touches their face.

(Wait…make that 3…. And one the following morning…when they wake and feel their face!)

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Yes….emulsifiers…depending on your goals….are ALL about textures.  It is a matter of getting a texture you want, and then also creating the stability that you need….a tight rope act!

Not sure about others…..but always takes me 30-40 iterations…to get what I want.  Maybe I’m just not any good at this?  

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

elirit .

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

Thank you! I bought the GSC from making cosmetics. I will be trying with mont 202, mont 202 with aristoflex, and 165.

Both should make nice emulsions…. You just have to find the one that creates the texture you are looking for.

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elirit said:

And just to clarify, if i add aristoflex or “cones”, I can remove the xanthan gum? Thx

Yes….with the Aristoflex.

The cones have no bearing on stability….. It is used for several purposes, but I think in the context of this thread….it was mentioned to deter soaping.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate

I don’t think available from LC.

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.

I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.

I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify!  Great tandem.

I just realized that I bought glyceryl stearate, not glyceryl stearate citrate . Ok the peptides are syn tc, syn tack and matrixyl 3000. extracts are tumeric and green tea extract. I was looking online for an electrolyte chcker and was unsuccessful. Ok, I’m off to buy GSC. Thanks again.

I asked Pharma the difference between the two, and here is his response:

“Two different things entirely.

GSC is a high HLB emulsifier, GS a low HLB co-emulsifier similar to stearyl alcohol.”

He steered me to GSC early on, when I was struggling with a very difficult emulsion that 165 (by itself) could not hold together.  

GSC is nice in that it does not bring a lot of thickening, so can be added without completely changing what you already have.

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I also use Sodium Phytate.  When used at such low inclusion rates (.1-.2%) they will still work with Aristoflex.

Your extracts and peptides will have to be analysed on an individual basis.

A classic example would be….Aloe.

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GSC = Glyceryl stearate citrate

I don’t think available from LC.

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

In my opinion….a must have in the tool box…not as a primary, but as a secondary…that does not destroy texture we work so hard to achieve.

I use this at a SUPER low rate….just to stabilize the Montanov’s.

I also use it with 165 at a much higher rate….on a crazy product that I have…that is incredibly hard to emulsify!  Great tandem.

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Because emulsifiers have different potencies…you have phrased your question in an difficult way to answer.

1) Use the mfg’s website.  They include very detailed instructions.

2) The amount of lipids you use will alter the amount of (the same) emulsifier you use.  10% oils vs 25% oils….changes everything even with the same emulsifier.

3) Some emulsifiers will do at .5% what others will do at 3%

Yes, soaping is worse with some emulsifiers vs others.  But that is usually addressed elsewhere in the formula.  But yes, using more emulsifier than necessary aggravates the situation.

Search ‘soaping’ on this site’s search bar, and your question will be answered over and over, even ways to do it without adding the dreaded dimethicone. 

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If you just use the search box on this site….and type ‘soaping’ … you will get several lunch hours of information.   

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Here is another….for M 68 aka Vegetal:

https://formulabotanica.com/vegetal-emulsifier/

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I think you might find this a fun read:

https://formulabotanica.com/montanov-202-palm-oil-free-emulsifier/

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly,  I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.

If soaping is your issue…we need to approach from a little different angle.

1) M 202 will soap less than M 68

2) Across the board, soaping is typically reduced by adding dimethicone, as          mentioned above.  However…if you are trying to be ‘cone free’….it can be done…but it will be costly!  I use between 8-10% of super slip and slide ingredients to = what dimethicone does.  I don’t think you have posted your full formula…another common culprit….is stearic acid. 
 
3) If you use a polymeric…(plus what you have) you can certainly remove the gum.  But memba…most polymeric’s don’t like your electrolytes.  I think Zen can handle some.  Aristoflex…Nope.  I also use Aristoflex…and love it.  I think a lot of people say….Zen gets a little jiggly above .5%.  So maybe don’t exceed that.

I don’t know anything about tetrahexyldecyl.

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BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream.  This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.

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elirit said:

Graillotion said:

elirit said:

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers?  You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!

When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream.  It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions.   GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.

Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.

I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.

Yes it came out really thick lol. Do you think I should reduce percentage of eumulgin (1%) and then add cetyl esters? Where do you buy your cetyl esters? Again, grateful for all this knowledge. 

First, Eumulgin is a potent emulsifier, meaning a little…goes a long way.  Let me paste some info below:

• For a thick lotion or cream, start with 1.0% Eumulgin SG and up to 5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
• For a thinner product, start with 0.25% Eumulgin SG and 2.5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
• For a thin lotion, use 0.5% Eumulgin SG with 1% Glyceryl Stearate
• For a much thicker cream use 1.0% Eumulgin SG with 3.75% Glyceryl Stearate.
• Typical usage rate: 0.25 - 2.0%.

So you can see by the use rate, a little goes a LONG WAY.  So all by itself at 1%, you are getting a thick product, without even giving consideration to the M 68.  Any fatty alcohols…will keep adding to the thickness.

View the Eumulgin as a crutch for the Montanov’s.  .2% should be plenty.  Again you are using it to ward off phase inversions.  It is not known for creating amazing textures!

Since you have plenty of viscosity….Cetyl Esters is a nice selection vs C Alcohol….since it creates less viscosity.  I buy mine at LotionCrafters.

As with any project….trial and error…keep changing ratios one at a time….until you are happy.   My last cream….took 29 versions.

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Bo77 said:

I never worked with silica and EO, but I would say that any lemon/citrus family, peppermint and mint family, following with ” Italian spice mix” lol - rosemary, sage etc. That would be my personal guess.? Some EO you mentioning here are pretty strong and can be harsh on the skin. 

Thanx!

Yes…I have studied them top to bottom.  They make up a small percent of the overall product, and the gentlest ones are used at much higher levels than the harsh ones.

Been wearing this product daily….for almost two years.  365 days of summer where I live. 

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elirit said:

jemolian said:

The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have. 

You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it: 

• ~10% oils / esters / lipids
• 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
• 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
• 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex

Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample

I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers?  You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!

When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream.  It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions.   GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.

Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.

I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.

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suswang8 said:

Did you experiment with the more expensive types? Are you saying that you do not like gums at all, or that you just do not like xanthan?

They are called…. “GUM” for a reason.  I have never had a customer say….I wish your products had a more gummy feel to them.

I don’t know the full history, but I think gums came about to help stabilize emulsions, when we did not have some of the tools we have now.  You just put up with the negative aspects, in order to achieve stability.

Maybe you can start a new thread…. What and why is your favorite X-Gum alternative.

Also…. Why are you asking about gums?  If you state the formulating goal….the group will gladly kick in their thoughts and alternatives. (I mean this in the kindest way… If you state your objective, you will often get input that helps you make a break-through in your product development.)  If you just ask about gums…you’ll only get gum answers.  If you say…. How do I stabilize an emulsion, while enhancing the texture….you get a completely group of answers.

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Top US small scale suppliers (in my opinion):

Formulators sample shop…  Prices are better when you start ordering less than the minimum.

LotionCrafters…. Good selection, and quickest turnaround time…usually ships in 1-2 days…at worst 3 days.

Make your Own.buzz … good prices and have some materials I could not find at others….definitely the slowest ship times.  Best butter quality…as it all comes out of a Major International supplier from Denmark.

Nobleroots:  Top tier ingredients…but limited in what they have as small pak.  Super premium ingredients….ie:  Not all macadamia nut oil is of the same quality…they use Floratech as their supplier of this…and that is over the top premium.  Amazing customer service.

I’ll toss one more in….cuz they have good descriptions…and I get two ingredients here that I could not find elsewhere.  ‘Ingredients to die for’.  Definitely the worst ship times…so you have to anticipate your needs if using them.

Making Cosmetics…I did get something from them recently…good quality…but prices are typically not competitive.

Ebay and Amazon…..last place on earth you get ingredients.  Went down that bunny trail…early on.

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What country do you live in?