[Graillotion]

I am in a similar situation.

I kept dreaming I could create a good scent with essential oils….to this day…I have not been able to create a scent I would pay money for.

With artificial scents…there can literally be 100’s of ingredients in a single fragrance….and you have little idea what is in there.  Other than getting a few tags of:  _______ FREE…that is all you know.

In my latest project, I finally found a natural scent that I, and so far, all my testers have appreciated:

Rose Bulgarian 3% Dilution at Wholesale prices (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

First of all….let me say…50% of testers will be repulsed by artificial rose… Those same testers…will usually like real rose.  This is a pricey option, and this product will take every bit of .5% to be effective.  I use phenethyl alcohol as part of my preservative system, and this really helps to enhance this scent.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

@ngarayeva001
@Pattsi
@Graillotion

For what it’s worth, the manufacturer claims that its lecithin (as sole emulsifier) can handle up to 10x its weight in oil (e.g., 0.8% should be enough for 8% oil).  https://www.cargill.com/personal-care/applications/skin-care-face

Regardless, I do have sorbitan stearate on hand.  How does glyceryl stearate compare?  I need something that is really non-comedogenic.  

Thank you.

First of all…if you believe all the propaganda that the mfg’s put out….there is probably no hope.  Secondly…when you calculate…you base the calculation on everything in the oil phase…not just the oil.  
Lecithin might make a good salad dressing, but will it provide an elegant product?  Even if it could hold it together, imagine the feel.
There are plenty of plant based emulsifiers that have a 0 rating for comedogenic, and actually work.

Just a hint….essentially everyone in the industry uses co-emulsifiers with emulsifiers that are monumentally better than lecithin…. go figure.  When a mfg states their emulsifier is ‘stand alone’….move on!  (Start reading books again.)

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Lecithin alone is not quite stable in long term, and you sure 0.8 is enough?

Bingo!

[Graillotion]

Lauryl Laurate

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Hi, all.
I have created a couple of oil-in-water products recently that looked perfectly fine on Day 1 and Day 2, and then starting about a week later (stored at around 75 degrees Fahrenheit) began to show minor signs of separation/unevenness.  

1. What is typically the first place you look when addressing this kind of issue?  Is it insufficient (%-wise) emulsifier?  
2. Also, does ethanol (added during cool down) lessen stability?

Thank you.

We can not begin to ‘guess’ what your issues are.  If you are looking for answers we need to know the details.  Formula with percentages, process etc.

The issues could be down many different avenues, from not using a primary emulsifier, to not using enough emulsifier, to having antagonist in the formula, so not following emulsifiers specific directions….(temp etc).  

If you are looking for answers, post your formula, pH, and technique/process.  We have actually seen people try and make emulsions with a whisk.  

[Graillotion]

What was your inclusion rate, and pH?

[Graillotion]

Perry said:

@Graillotion - I will look into that. I thought it opened up a new window but I guess sometimes it doesn’t.

At least with the browsers I use… 100% of the time, it opens in the currant page, so the forum is gone, whenever I click on a posted link.

I’m one of those nut jobs that reads all the links. 🙂

[Graillotion]

Speaking of links and the site, @Perry, just throwing this out there….but on the forum whenever you click on a link…it takes you off the site.  Is there anyway you can make them open in a new window?  Just a thought.

[Graillotion]

TheSocksTooBig said:

Also like to mention. Some distributor say their shea butter is ultra refined but it’s not. lotioncrafter’s refined shea butter was much better than some ultra refined version. It was lighter, more creamy, whiter, and no odour 

There is no definition for refined and ultra refined.  Just perception.  

[Graillotion]

The small companies are less likely to have a chemist on staff.  As I have learned in my journey, there are so many pitfalls on the way to success, one either needs access to a chemist, or a chemist on staff.

We left out the mid-size brands….I have seen more sketchy labels at that level…than anywhere else. (non viable preservative systems….yet their products seem to last and last???)

[Graillotion]

aedina said:

Thank you for your insight.

 I am from EU and l have just started formulating. l bought so so many cold-pressed organic butters, oils and extracts that l am really embarrassed about it…But it is good to learn from mistakes and this website does help a lot.

 l originally wanted to combine synthetic ingredients with the best natural ingredients l could find. 

Hey… the fact that you kept trying after discovering less that ideal products says a lot.  I went through the exact same thing, and it is all about moving past the hurdles in the search for quality.

I also formulate with the theme of using naturals where I can, and incorporating some key synthetics where prudent.

I have found ICSC to be very communicative…so just reach out to them…tell them where you live, and ask whom might be a re-seller of their product…or even ask for a sample….they have sent me many.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@graillotion:

 Did you try Etsy? … LOL!

Hehehehe…. I was trying to minimize my failures….not maximize them! 

I got it mostly figured out now….I just had an upcoming project where I needed some Andiroba…and my usual suppliers did not have it…so I was having the branch out.

[Graillotion]

aedina said:

l looked into ICSC , l could not find any prices there. Do they do only wholesale or?

Some people really want pure organic ,but complain about the scent. I honestly do not know what to do anymore. Personally, l can not tell the difference when l use both, my skin did not look magical after using unrefined.

l think vanilla or honey might be complimentary to the scent of shea.

l do see how rose, lavender and strawberry fragrance oils are quite popular, but l think a lot has to be used to mask the shea scent. 2,3,4% and even then shea scent is quite intense.

Yes…ICSC … is essentially wholesale.  But they are very good about sending samples via ULP.  They are also VERY good about selling smaller amounts than their MOQ….not a few ounces/grams….but maybe as little as a kilo or two.

If you live in the US….just buy it at: 

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/murumuru-butter/

They are a re-seller for ICSC.  

I don’t use shea….Once you try some of the other butters…Shea becomes a distant memory.  If you want lite and silky… Try their Murumuru.  If you want something that gives a deep long moisturizing feeling….try Illipe.  Want something like Shea, but not a greasy mess…try Kpangnan.  Cupuacu…also something to look at for hand and body.

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/kpagnan-butter/

[Graillotion]

Once you get your hands on good refined butters….there is NO turning back.  I have tried them all… and the best, hands down are the Danish butters from ICSC.

If you live in the US…you can buy them small pack from MakeYourOwn.com

No bad odor, no smoky flavor, or dirt….just amazing stuff.

And you are spot on….the big cosmetic companies are not using the dirty stinky butters found on the home crafter sites.

[Graillotion]

I heard picking up a penny can be lucky.

[Graillotion]

I’ll just piggy back on to that….depending what you have on hand… 1% Montanov 68 will also add a nice richness to many emulsions.  It is part of how I convert my day creams to night creams.  

And…I simply couldn’t formulate without Cetyl Palmitate…the main constituent of Oliwax LC.

[Graillotion]

MariaSelma said:

1. what do you mean by “as naturally as good stewardship allows” please develop !!

That means I do not like to slather myself in chemicals.  If I have a choice between a natural emollient and an artificial one, I will select the natural one, even if the cost is more.  It also means I use lots of naturally derived but processed ingredients.  As an example, one of the ingredients I use the most is Isoamyl Laurate…naturally derived…but not very natural.  Another example is Lauryl Laurate.  Both of these products make for an amazing feel….but guessing would not meet your criteria.

For emulsifiers I use Montanov 202 and GSC.  They are reasonably natural, but the first can be a little difficult to work with.

I also use the165 series emulsifier in a more basic lotion product.

I use hydrolyzed Jojoba esters in lieu of petrolatum.

When it comes to preservatives…. I think this is an area that you cannot get wrong.  I still prefer not to work with parabens and F releasers….but will be the first to admit they are the most effective.  Therefore I use science based hurdle technologies…that start with pH followed by trying to bind the free water, followed by a chelator, followed by a reputable preservative (E 9010) enhanced with Hydroxyacetophenone and phenethyl alcohol to preserve the head space.  

I am a fanatic about texture…so I use some rather processed ingredients to get a sensory that blows the mind.  But I am certain you won’t be interested in those ingredients.

….and me creams disappear into the skin…before the first stroke of your finger has finished it’s first pass.

[Graillotion]

MariaSelma said:

i’m based on organic formulation … can you give me exmples of some nice textural items that match with the organic formulation ??

Like i said .. i’m a begginer and looking for advices from people with strong experience.

… and yes Vit E  is not a preservative, it’s an antioxydant (i used it for the lipid part) ..

I do not formulate organically, so I don’t believe I can provide organic examples.  I formulate as naturally as good stewardship allows, then finish with science.

The vitamin E I am familiar with….is very sticky… and will not enhance a texture.  I think you will also find that it does everything you are imagining it doing at .2%.  More of something good….is not always better.

[Graillotion]

Haloul said:

@ngarayeva001 Im not preaching for anyone and I’m not associated with FB in any way! The professional approach you mentioned should not allow as well to attack a reputable school, you like it or not!

The only reputation they have…is among mommy bloggers.

Be careful what you say…this is a science based site… Not repeated hearsay.

[Graillotion]

Can you post the INCI of your benchmark?

Pretty sure the group can tell you what is making it glossy…if they have that INCI.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

There are so many issues here besides soaping. Preservation system isn’t adequate. Emulsification system non existent pretty much. GMS isn’t an emulsifier on its own. Too much of tocopherol. 

Agreed!  

You don’t have any nice textural items???  I can’t imagine this feels good….even if you can get it rubbed in?  You’ll need some slip, slide, and glide…and that will actually help with the soaping.

And definitely improve the preservative.

Just checking….you know Vit. E is NOT a preservative?

[Graillotion]

Agee with ggpetrov, and you could add some starch as well.
Try you CCT neat.
I have found…different batches from different vendors can sometime have dramatic differences.  Stuff that is supposed to absorb like water in a desert…might sit on skin for hours….just cus it is a bad batch.
Consider the 165 series emulsifier….it gives a pretty dry feel, albeit you might not like PEG.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

…does anyone have a suggestion on what I could add that might add a noticeable benefit..?

You have to state the benefit you are looking for.

[Graillotion]

MariaSelma said:

What is the saapping effect” and how to correct the shot??  

“Soaping” effect… what you called foaming…and lengthy time to disappear, and probably the number one reason new people arrive at this site… 
This question has been answered more times than can be counted.  In the upper right corner….there is a search box….type ‘soaping’ click enter….and you will have a free education that money can’t buy! 
The simplest answer to your question is…reduce X-gum and add dimethicone…. but there are other ways.  

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

This is really disheartening. You would think that legally they wouldn’t be able to claim something is “100% natural” or “organic” if it wasn’t but I suppose that’s a bit of an idealistic way of thinking :blush:
Thanks for all the info. It’s incredibly helpful!! 

Many of us have amateur’s have been down that path early on.  I used to buy what I thought were exotic oils like Moringa, Black Seed, and Tamanu… Turned out they were all just veggie oil like you buy in the store.  
You learn VERY quickly….where to buy quality inputs…and it is not on Amazon or e-bay (usually).