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careyu said:

 do you think it helps me to learn or form partnerships when people are trying to shame me?  

I know you are new to the site….so let me just give a kind insight to what has happened here.  As you are probably aware this is a science based site, which makes it different from most.  So your mention of EWG immediately put many on edge.  The best example that can come to my mind would be like this…. Would you wear a red Trump MAGA hat to the democratic convention?

People on this site have been incredibly helpful to me…and many other new comers.  The only thing that matters is that you are willing to learn and are open minded to science.  Some of the most brilliant chemist in the world frequent this site, an opportunity that is absolutely priceless.  I believe they enjoy sharing their craft with the newbies, and those that are totally immersing themselves in learning the industry from a scientific point of view.  What is not appreciated is waving the flag of a polarizing organization whom does not put science first.

It is fine if you personally want to hold to those beliefs, or market to those who do… just don’t wave it in the face of those who have not drunk the EWG kool-aid.  Please take this as a positive comment, that will allow you to meld with the group nicely.  It is a tool that cannot be matched anywhere else on the net.

You don’t want to alienate yourself with with anyone on this site…you never know, that person might be the most valuable texturizing asset on the site.   

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careyu  I am open if any other chemists would like to collaborate on this project.  thanks!   

I believe working with a chemist, and EWG are essentially, mutually exclusive.  You may want to try some sites (and there are many) more oriented to your beliefs.

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Pattsi said:

Flip cap with squeeze bottle, if your formula’s not thin enough when you reach the bottom would problem.
what is you bottle volume?
Tube is more manageable. There’s 225-250 ml airless bottle (olay model) from China (forgot the company name) - pretty cheap but looks pretty cheap too.

Do you have a link on those airless bottles?

I have a product that is prone to oxidation….and I had been looking at some 150ml airless bottles…but cost was $2.00 per unit (good quality, they sent me samples). I could use those bigger sizes as well.

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I decided to thin the formula a touch…and switch to a flip cap.

Saves $$$

And production is much easier.

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I ended up landing on Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate.

Any negatives with that one?

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Well…I believe any co emulsifier is better than none.  But ultimately it is about making the best possible pairing.  Not only does the mfg recommend an anionic….but so does my genius chemist.  

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If you dig to the bottom of the M 68 instruction sheet…you will discover they recommend always pairing it with an anionic o/w emulsifier.  Add Glyceryl stearate citrate at .5-.75%, and increase your M 68 to 4%…and I believe you will be happy.  (Please don’t confuse GSC for GS or GS SE.)

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

Keep your polyacrylate crosspolymer in there.

Mont 202 will make it shinier. (Also pair with GSC.)

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abierose said:

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Really?! Well I guess I’m glad I did purchase the Babassu oil then! I can’t believe I never looked at the comedogenic rating for it yet since that is usually one of the first things I do when purchasing new-to-me oils. 
And I haven’t purchased anything from NDA yet but I have used MYO in the past.
Thanks!!

When I am sourcing ingredients for a product….I’ll typically buy the same product from LC, FSS, NDA and MYO, (and Noble Roots in the past)….and compare them.  Absolutely jaw dropping how they will vary from vendor to vendor.

NDA will almost always win.

Except butters….MYO…hands down the best.  (They sell the good Danish stuff!)

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abierose said:

@Graillotion Did you ever find or come up with an effective preservative system that could handle the colloidal oatmeal? I’m using it in a couple of lotions I make and it is literally the only thing I have ever seen mold (which happened at about 3 months). 

Also, I use it in conjunction with hydrolyzed oats in one product…would this have the same preservative challenges as the colloidal oatmeal?

Yes…colloidal oatmeal is a super food for bugs.  Any purchased hydrolyzed product will all ready be preserved, so less of a concern.  However, as you blend it out in a formula, it could again become a concern (bugfood) if your preservative system is not on point.  But the whole formula will be at risk for the same reason…oat products or not.  These issues are easily handled with a paraben blend, or some of the F releasers.  If you choose the more difficult route of working around those two preservatives….better be sharp on your chemistry.  I work with a chemist that keeps me in line.  If you don’t have that luxury…stick with the afore mentioned preservatives.

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abierose said:

helenhelen said:

Maybe look up octyldodecanol..

Babassu oil is a nice light oil that is solid at room temperature (low melting point though).

And I do have Babassu oil but after I purchased it, I started reading everywhere that it is nearly identical to coconut oil, only more expensive ????‍♀️

Thank you for the information!

Ohhhh…. Babassu is soooooo much better.  Especially if you start making facial products.  Compare the comedogenic ratings!

Quality of oils varies enormously between vendors.  The best I have gotten was from NDA… but not far behind was MYO.

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The mommy blogger sites don’t like (understand) PEG…so 165 gets kicked to the curb…even though that is what they should be using!

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abierose said:

@Graillotion what percentage should I start off at? And I have Isopropyl Myristate so would that work at least until I get the Lauryl Laurate? Thanks!!

I assume you have a formula you are working off of….otherwise… one way to see what the competition is doing is to use this website:

INCIDecoder - Decode your skincare ingredients

When you see something you like….enter it here….or an ingredient…and it will provide you with some useful info….at least on those components that are above the 1% line.

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Agreed….I avoid stearic at all cost.  Thing with stearic just don’t have the texture I require.
Granted I use it in one difficult product…My mosquito lotion….otherwise I always formulae around it.

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LL is a solid at room temp…but melts immediately upon skin contact…this ‘melting’ causes a ‘cool’ sensation, and very nice glide.  Because it is an ester, it has a super lite feel…and no greasy after effect.  In the lighter of my two creams… (lower oil content) I use it as 1.5%.  In a little heavier cream…I use it at 2%.   As with ALL things…you just have to experiment until it feels like you imagined it.

IPM is a nice lite emollient…but there are many lighter.  In creams…I use a cascading effect of emollients (IL +IPM+LL)…basically means…use emollients of different weights…kinda gives a depth to the emollients….hehehe…maybe not so important in deodorant.

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Some emulsifiers can be used at room temperature….no heating at all…. So in order for anyone to address your question more directly…. You need to state the emulsifier you are using.

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Read the mfg instructions.  There is no set temp….each emulsifier has it’s own melting point.  I use Montanov 202, which requires a MUCH high temperature than say… the 165 series (which I also use).  You must also achieve a temp high enough to melt everything you included in the given phases.

If heat and hold came up in your research….your probably barking up the wrong tree.

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PhilGeis said:

There is no such system.

I thought for sure you and @Perry would have come back with some paraben blend + an F releaser as a one size fits all?  Really…no?  Is pH the limiting factor….of not being able to create a one size fits all?

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Look at a lot of INCI’s of products you like the feel and performance of.

You can see…they are not often very simple.  Then do your research, and figure out why they added each of those components…what they do…how they change the feel…etc.

If you don’t like a component…figure out what the alternatives are.

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I use this one:

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/checker-plus-ph-tester-hi98100-plus-hanna-instruments/

They also sell a cheaper one…that measures one less place to the right of the decimal.

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mikethair said:

Graillotion said:

mikethair said:

We are usually buying in around 30 Kg lots, so not “small pack.” Plus in our part of the world SE Asia, the suppliers are not the same as Cananda - Hawaii. Yes, we sometimes use New Directions (Australia) but you need to be careful in your specs…. we have fund they can sometimes tend towards things like “nature identical oils” which are in fact synthetic.

Yes…I am aware they have some ‘nature identicals’… but have always found them to be well marked / documented…so no issues.

I was looking for thymol for a mosquito lotion….and so tried a ‘natural identical’ Thyme….and is was pretty nasty.   Will not be using it.  Later purchased the real Thyme…and it was delightful.

Thanks for the heads up…and maybe someone read this thread someday will be saved some grief.

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Cafe33 said:

.

  Yet we have been attacked so far for using cetyl alcohol in our products 

I had not heard of cetyl alcohol being on any ‘naughty lists’.  Are these the people that think anything with the word ‘alcohol’….is drying?

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Add as little stearic acid as you can get by with.  Add some dimethicone to reduce soaping.

Review the basics….

What is your:

emollient
occlusive
humectant (as mentioned…glycerin…or others)
emulsifier/s….and how will it make my product feel?

Build off of that.  Once you have those fundamentals in place, substitute in better pieces until you have the feel you want.

Note: I just finished a cream that started out pretty elaborate right out of the gate…and took 41 iterations to get it where I was happy.

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mikethair said:

My business partner and I have allergies to synthetic fragrances, so in our skin & hair care product business we stick with essential oils only. And we only buy from trusted sources… one I have used for around 30 years, and the newest, 10 years. All batches supplied with CoAs. 

Are you willing to share your trusted sources?  Do they sell small pack?

Of all the small pack resellers I have tried, I like New Directions the best.  But always open to a good supplier!  Can never have enough of those.  (Also shipping from Canada to Hawaii….adds up!)

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domicanica said:

Hmm thanks @Perry your last point was especially helpful and sparked an idea in my head. I was mostly worried about buyer perception but I will go ahead and explore synthetic fragrances as an option. Maybe if I’m transparent enough and make sure to write enough educational material on my website and social media channels people won’t mind.

Hehehe….educating social media?  Many of them operate on ignorance and fear mongering, and don’t dare contradict the blogger they worship. ::wink:
(Don’t leave it open for debate…or that is what you’ll spend your time doing.)  Whatever route you take, do it with confidence.  You can not be all things to all people.

I also use some synthetic fragrances…as long as you can list them as paraben-free and phthalate-free, you will draw in all but the wacko’s.

If there is one thing I have discovered in developing, and especially when I create trials (that I do myself) with people….the absolute first thing they do…even before they allow it to touch their skin….SNIFF SNIFF…  Win the sniff test…you have all but won the battle.

I even do crazy things like give them 3 of the same thing…only scent is different….and they will rave about how superior all aspects of the cream they like the scent of, and how it is superior to the other two products….which only the fragrance is different.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Re formula, I am with @Pattsi and @Graillotion, the emulsification system isn’t adequate. Get a proper emulsifier. I always suggest Arlacel 165 (ala lotionpro 165, aka Glyceryl Steatate+ PEG-100 stearate) 

I use the 165 series on two of my products.  Quite simply the easiest to use, and most stable….sometimes we say ‘bullet proof’ as an emulsifier.  And in both cases I use a strong co-emulsifiers to support it.  In all but one case I back up my primary emulsifier with GSC (Glyceryl stearate citrate).  Please don’t confuse that with Glyceryl stearate!  Of course I also support the overall emulsion with fatty alcohols (different ones for different applications).

Tip: You emulsifier of choice…will have a dramatic effect on the feel of your product.  If you choose an emulsifier that is not elegant to start with, it becomes much more difficult to formulate ‘elegance’ back into it.