[Graillotion]

JonahRay said:

@Graillotion finally got my hands on glyceryl stearate citrate and looks like the problem has been solved (into the incubator it goes). I also increased 68MB to 4% and also added in some tribehenin - thank you so much for the advice!

Hope all goes well!

GSC is really nice…in that it really doesn’t change the tactile feeling that you chase with the main emulsifier.  I had tried a different anionic in my journeys, and it absolutely destroyed the feel I was chasing with the Montanov’s.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh goodness!! Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one!  I have a bunch of fragrance oils that I will probably never use because out of all of them, I really only like 2 or 3 of them! Damn, ok, was hoping you would have a special fragrance supplier that you love and could direct me to but I guess my search will continue. One lesson I have learned is that I shouldn’t buy more than 1 or 2 small or sample sized fragrance oils from any one vendor, hehe ????

Yes…I have found the reviews posted on the vendor sites….are absolutely worthless….people will rave about things…that absolutely stink!

Hehehe….maybe as picky people we would have the same fav’s?

We should compare notes.

[Graillotion]

Hahaha…. I have 80 fragrances…from maybe 10 vendors.

There is no one company better than another as far as finding something you like…that is all just personal opinion.

I was thinking about selling them off on e-bay….in lots of 10….grab bag style…hehehe.

Ohh…and of those 80…I have one that I like, and maybe 2-3 that won’t kill me.   

And of course in this industry…there are many re-packers…selling the same thing with different names.  

[Graillotion]

Climatechangeanxiety said:

@DAS gotcha..i’m just a hobbyist for now so I don’t have a industry-standard manufacturing process. I’ll add the preservatives after cooldown, but for the ‘heated phase’ was just wondering if adding boiling water to my surfactants will do any bad.

I guess what is confusing us is…. Will it do any good?  Other than being a waste of energy…what would the point be?  What are you trying to gain?  Some hobbyist will use glassware and a microwave to reduce energy use. 

When I have an emulsifier that needs heat…I try and use as little heat as possible to achieve the necessary temperature.  Energy is expensive in Hawaii!

I think what some of the other’s are trying to say….is process is very important.  If you don’t repeat the same exact process each time…you will ultimately create a slightly different product each time.  If you are only making for yourself…that is fine.   If you are considering selling…..not so fine.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion i bought mine from china as per usual, but then in terms of skin feel wise, Isononyl Isononoate’s profile is very fast spreading, silky and relatively fast absorbing even up to 20%.

Just bought some Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, so hope to test it when it arrives. 

Thank you…. I went ahead and order samples from ULP… I have a repacker whom I can sometimes twist their arm into getting specialty products.

I just started with the polyisobutene last week….in a very lite lotion package…and it definately enhanced the durability of the humectants.  So plan on trying it again tomorrow with a little higher rate of hydrolyzed Jojoba esters, to make it feel like a lite weight, but moisturize like a heavy weight.  I can usually get that effect by raising the HJE’s up in that 3% range.

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

 i use esters such as Isononyl Isononanoate. 
 

Just curious…the US repackers don’t seem to carry Isononyl Isononoate…so I have always had to use Isoamyl laurate (mixed in with a few other things).  I’ve always wondered what I was missing….can you or anyone compare them for me?

I’ve never requested a sample of ULP….cus I did not have a place I could ultimately buy it.

[Graillotion]

Allantoin still exceeds what can be solubilized in the water you have.  If I recall, .54% of water…not .54% of formula.

Monumental step forward from first formula.

Now just make a small batch…evaluate and correct.

[Graillotion]

Sorry…. copy and paste was so large….it will take two:

With more than 10,000 starter formulations and 24,000 ingredients, Prospector can help you get your new product ideas to market quickly!

Using a starting formula is a great way to begin the process of making a new product. You can learn how to make things of which you are unfamiliar and also discover where formula improvements might be made. The suppliers found here on UL Prospector are a great source for some of those starting formulas. Just remember, they are a place to start, not a place to end.

[Graillotion]

ULP has thousands of formulas.   Look through them, and find a starting formula….then follow the outline I copied and pasted from ULP:

What is a starting formula

A starting formula is basically a recipe that tells you how to make whatever type of product it refers to. It contains a list of ingredients, their proportions, the way to put them together and specifications for how it should look when you’re done. The closest thing to a formula that you may have encountered in college was in Organic Chemistry lab. These lab exercises involved following a series of experimental steps to convert some starting chemicals into a new chemical. I distinctly remember a lab synthesizing N, N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide (DEET).  Of course, cosmetic formulating is different than organic synthesis. Generally, formulators mix together chemicals and hope nothing happens.

Why would you use one?

To some, using a starting formula might seem like cheating. Theoretically, if you know all your raw materials and what they do, you should be able to come up with a basic formula by just guessing at the proportions. And some chemists do this. But the vast majority of formulators begin with a starting formula for the following reasons.

• Inherited formulas – If you’re new to a company, they’ve got formulas they’ve been making for years before you got there. Their consumers already like the product and their manufacturing department has figured out how to produce the product efficiently. Typically, new formulators are hired to tweak existing formulas, not create completely new ones.
• Formulating faster – When your company or client wants to make a product that is completely new to you, then using a starting formula will help you learn the technology and the basic range of ingredients you need to make a product work. It is much faster to start with an existing formula than to make a new one right out of your brain.
• More efficient – While you could create a formula based on a theoretical description of all the raw materials a product needs, this may require dozens of raw material samples from a variety of different suppliers. When you begin with a starting formula you drastically cut down your options making formulating more efficient.

You certainly don’t have to begin with a starting formula, but unless you have decades of experience formulating a wide range of products, using a starting formula is where most cosmetic chemists begin.

Where to find reliable starting formulas

In the old days, the places to find starting formulas was limited.  There was your company’s old notebooks, the pages of classic industry text books like Harry’s Cosmeticology, supplier’s printed formularies or in the trade journal’s monthly formulary column. Clever chemists could also get starting formulas from patents.  And for the most part, you can still use all those sources, but paper printing has given way to digital publications.

The sources mentioned thus far were relatively reliable and you could count on coming up with a decent product if you followed the published starting formula. But with publishing on the Internet being so easy there are many more sources to find starting formulas such as blogs, social media, online videos, and raw material supplier websites. Unfortunately, the quality of these newly available sources is questionable. Many recipes you find online don’t actually work.  Stick to more reliable resources published by suppliers, trade journals and qualified experts if you are trying to make a good formula.

How to use them

Wherever you find your starting formula, the next step is to use it.  Here are some tips.

• Make it just the way it is written. This means get the suggested raw materials. Use the suggested amounts. And put it together in the way described. Don’t substitute ingredients or use more or less based on your whims. You want to make the first prototype as exact as possible.

This will provide the baseline from which you can further iterate and make improvements.

• Characterize the formula – Once you have it made, you want to create as many measurements about its various characteristics as you can. Of course, check it against the starting specifications (color, pH, viscosity, etc.). But also compare it to a benchmark product you are trying to emulate. Specifically, do some in use performance testing.

This will let you know what you need to improve to make a better formula.

• Perform a knockout experiment – Many starting formulas have excess amounts or numbers of ingredients that aren’t necessary. You can perform a knockout experiment to determine which ingredients are really needed. This is done by making a series of formulas in which you leave out or “knockout” one of the ingredients and replace the missing volume with the main solvent. Once you finished, you’ll have a series of batches that show you how crucial each ingredient is form the formula.

This will let you know what ingredients have the most significant impact on the formula.

• Iterate to create a better formula – Now that you know what ingredients are important you can start experimenting. You can reduce or increase the level different ingredients. You can substitute out similar classes of ingredients for the ones listed in the formula. You can adjust levels to optimize for cost or performance. This is where the real work of the cosmetic formulator happens.

Eventually, with enough prototypes and testing, you should end up with a formula that looks a lot different from the starting formula but is superior in performance and cost.

Some final tips when working with starting formulas

• Avoid violating a formulation patent – while you can find starting formulas in patents be sure that the formula you end up with based on it doesn’t violate the patent.
• Don’t market starting formulas – Using a starting formula is a great place to begin your formulation efforts. But don’t go to market with a starting formula. You need to make sure that the formula is stable and works for your purposes. Always make some optimized changes to a starting formula.
• Supplier formulas are usually bloated – While formulas from suppliers are incredibly helpful remember that they are made to highlight the supplier’s ingredients. That typically means they have higher levels of the supplier’s materials than you actually need. This is good for raw material sales, but maybe not great for your formula needs.
• Don’t optimize too much – Finally, when you’re making a new formula focus mostly on performance. Don’t worry as much about optimizing for cost. That’s because you know in a year or so your marketing people will come to you and ask you to make the formula less expensive. This is when you optimize for cost.

[Graillotion]

Does your product contain viable preservatives?

[Graillotion]

Yes!  I have found nothing like the Danish butters….ANYWHERE.  And yes…I love the oils I get from NDA.

MYO’s butters come from here: ICSC - Leading supplier of natural oils, butters, antioxidants & preservatives

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…

OMG…you badly misread my statement… That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

And ummh….B5 level…way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well… it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water….Not formula….WATER.  Hence….in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent…aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.   

Hehehe….sorry I use those as part of my marketing….(What my products DON’T contain.)

I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support…so maybe look at an oil high in GLA….or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

Keep in mind….if you use silk…I believe it can no longer be considered….Vegan.

Ohh!! Yes, point 1 is quite different!! And I only use Allantoin at point 3 (.3) percent in my formulations.  I also prefer to use claim ingredients that have at least some scientifically proven benefit. I wouldn’t feel right about using ingredients that have absolutely zero benefit. I have searched for conclusive data on Panthenol and whether or not it actually has any benefits and I have yet to find anything from a reliable source or study backed white papers on that. The suggested usage rate for Panthenol in skincare products is 1-5%…is 2% too high still? And yeah, the silk peptides are not considered vegan, which I don’t like either.

Hmmm…guess I have a bunch of Panthenol AND silk peptides that I won’t be using ????

Oh….use the panthenol….just cut the rate.  You were looking for good ‘claim’ ingredients….it would be one!!! (Not meaning supported by science…but something that makes many customers feel warm and fuzzy.)  

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters ????

Butters and scent…directly correlate to level of cleanliness and refinement.  Want any butter you can dream about…without the scent…. Look at the refined Danish butters sold at MYO… In a class by themselves.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…

OMG…you badly misread my statement… That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

And ummh….B5 level…way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well… it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water….Not formula….WATER.  Hence….in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent…aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.   

Hehehe….sorry I use those as part of my marketing….(What my products DON’T contain.)

I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support…so maybe look at an oil high in GLA….or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

Keep in mind….if you use silk…I believe it can no longer be considered….Vegan.

[Graillotion]

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion it’s Hyacross from Bloomage, they manufacture various HAs and Polyglutamic acids. 0.5% to 1% should be sufficient. 

Don’t suppose I can get the same effect, with an 1% HA solution and a polymeric?

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

 my preference is the HA crosspolymer since i find that the performance is more significant in humid climates. 

What is the name of the HA crosspolymer you are working with?  I love new things.  

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…differentiate a more caring feeling… enhanced occlusiveness…

What did I tell you . BTW this effect will likely be even more pronounced in a colder and/or drier climate than yours.

Why a high price? Your special island import fee? ;(

I have only been able to source it at Making Cosmetics….where everything is sold at a premium price.

Well let me know about that colder climate thing….in about three weeks. 😉  (And how you like wasabi mac nuts. :blush: )

[Graillotion]

Are you asking about stability (does not separate)….or preservation (germs, mold, yeast…etc).

If stability….use a centrifuge.  If you don’t have that….put in a clear container and place it in your sunniest window. Generally toss in a couple cycles in the freezer as well.  That will give a rudimentary result.

[Graillotion]

ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. In your experience, what has been the best ingredient that eliminates drag? You said you use a humectant blend, do you feel like each of them has a unique ability to increase slip, and so cumulatively they perform better together than one by itself?:smile:

Do you remember why butylene glycol didn’t make your cut? Did propylene glycol make your cut, however?

Do you have any opinion on HA vs these glycols, propanediol,etc? I am interested in trying glycereth-26 too, seems like it would be in this category of moisturizing humectant-solvents. I can’t find a supplier though  

I have no idea what level formulator you are, and what you have on hand.  So I will try and answer your questions as though I was working through them.  I make rather complicated formulas….tend to buy every possible combination of ingredients…and try them all.  My last cream took 41 tries to get what I wanted.  I micro-manage every aspect of my formulas.  I feel process and equipment is as important as what goes into them.

Well…lets see what we can come up with.  How to eliminate drag… First…I would try not to introduce drag….as in…if you don’t introduce it…there is that much less that you have to eliminate.   I follow the principle taught to me by my mentor…of cascading emollients.  So other than water, Isoamyl Laurate is my most used ingredient.  Depending on the formula…I will create the 3-D cascading effect with some of the following: IPM, Lauryl Laurate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Cetyl Esters (helps thicken), dimethicone, cyclomethicone (love this one at 1%), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate (when I want some scent retention) and of course thickener/emulsifiers like Aristoflex and carbomer.  That being said….your primary emulsifier is also critical….if you use a draggy waxy emulsifier…you have that much more to overcome.

For each formula…depending on goals… I will retest this collection and pair those that best match the goals…. so if quick absorbing is word of the day…I’ll use those….if lingering emolliency is what I am chasing…than some of the slower absorbing ones can be used.  Once you get used to the players…common sense fills in the blanks pretty easily.  Most beginners….don’t use nearly enough of this grouping.  To make products amazing….these groupings should be around 10% of your formula.

Regarding: Do you remember why butylene glycol didn’t make your cut? Did propylene glycol make your cut, however?

I use neither.  Mainly because of their perception (by customers) ….and better alternatives.  I guess I would say…why use PG when you could use Propanediol???  The non petrol based versions of BG….did not absorb…it was like adding Vaseline, there were simply way better glycols for my purpose.

Regarding: Do you have any opinion on HA vs these glycols, propanediol….

My primary purpose with the glycols is preservation…so I am looking at binding free water…(plenty in the archives on this).  So I do not view them as interchangeable with HA.  I think most in this group (myself included) believe HA is way over hyped.  That said…I use it in everything…hey…gotta market this stuff.  Plenty of good stuff in the archive on this…but basic premise is….the HA is your product is 100% hydrated….so how can it add any water once applied????  Chew on that one for a few hours. 

If you truly want to learn and explore the worlds of humectants….create a very simple bare bones formula….little more than an emulsifier, emollient, barrier, and then sub a different humectant in…and make it over and over.  Then see which one hydrates your skin (or target market skin) the best…and use the ones that work best for your goal.  You can never hit the target…if you don’t set goals. 

Good Luck in you journey.

[Graillotion]

EXCELLENT points from Perry and Mark.  If you are going to provide a quality and consistent product, you need quality and consistent suppliers….chasing the low cost leader…will ultimately probably cause your venture to fail.

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Hydrogenated polyisobutene would work anywhere where squalane does. I use it as an affordable squala replacement. Also it’s non polar, which means better stability, and versatility. 

I used it for the first time yesterday, in a lite lotion formula (at 1.5%).  Texturally…I could not perceive a difference upon application.  However, within a minute of application, I could begin to differentiate a more caring feeling on the polyisobutene hand and arm.  It was applied before bedtime, and there was a definite advantage the following morning.  I would attribute that to the enhanced occlusiveness it provided.  So, it seems to enhance the occlusive properties of a hand and body lotion (at a high price).

[Graillotion]

For the record…I use glycerin in all my formulas….but I use a humectant blend.  (Partly to avoid stickiness, and drag, and I have no idea what climate my product will end up in.)

Also, as with all my ingredients…I buy the smallest size from all of my suppliers….Butylene glycol as an example (which did not make my final cut)… the variation between how it felt and absorbed was astonishing….vendor to vendor.

[Graillotion]

Not really….

I do this with every liquid ingredient that passes through my hands….

Make a grid on your arm…. apply…. take notes….observe….feel your skin 15 min later.

When I did that test…. propanediol actually had water bead up on my skin….none of the other did that. (I live in super high humidity Hawaii.) It will also give you a feel for the inherent stickiness of many of the humectants. 

Yes… They have similar effects in formulation….but if you do some achive searches…you will see they perform slightly differently at different humidities…hence why some of blend our humectants.  Also some are more sticky than others.

Propanediol and natural betaine are my favorites of the group.

If it is all about cost….glycerin is cheaper than bottled water.

Want to make your product feel wetter….try pentylene glycol.

[Graillotion]

I have a real company…but throw away email address (long story, and I am lazy and cheap.)….and I get about a 60% take rate on ULP.

You have to sign up…and they actually do a surprising amount of vetting.

Aloha.