[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Hi, all.

I already slurry it with my glycerin, but I thought that this facilitates dispersion, not hydration?  Basically, you all seem to be saying to add it into the water phase (not after the emulsion is made) and that there is no need to wait to ensure the gum is fully hydrated?

Same with the Siligel…if you add it to the water phase before heating…by the time you could possibly heat, and combine phases etc….it will be essentially hydrated.  I tried once….ONCE…to combine with the glycols….what a mess.  Why create messes like that…when it goes into water so nice.  I think Siligel…has some kind of nano-coating….cause it goes into water…soooo nice.

[Graillotion]

I use Siligel…and it seems to be foolproof…just dump it into the water phase under agitation…and absolutely no issues.
Even when I was using X-gum soft…I had no issues…but I was using a good homogenizer throughout the process.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

You should try the blend…and if you like it…I think I can put together a small group (in the US) to split the 35# MOQ.

[Graillotion]

abierose said:

Isononyl Isononanoate is one of my new favorites too!! ???? 

Where did you get that?  I have not seen it for sale (from a repacker).  Did you get it from ULP?

BTW… I liked the blend MUCH better than just the straight II.  And yes…I tried both components separately as well.  II was too occlusive by itself…but the synergy…was stunning….I guess that is why they sell it as a blend. :smiley:

[Graillotion]

I have a new favorite:

Pelemol 899

INCI Name: Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate

And yes..I tried them both individually…but definitely a synergy together.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Iwana said:

Normally In lotion Formulation do the lotion become watery and like this. And still pass ?

Can you clarify….watery?

Did all contents become watery….or you got something that looked like sweat…or condensation on the top of the product…or sides of the bottle, but the balance of the product maintained viscosity?

Maybe a picture would help.

[Graillotion]

PhilGeis said:

As Ilse pointed out - the CoA is confusing.  Eugenol is both 75% and 7%.  Ask the supplier for clarification.

Eugenol is among the Fragrance allergens that require cosmetic/detergent labeling. 

Yes, I chose the clove CoA, due to the fact it has a known allergen.  But was puzzled with the double listing.

Where can I see…or can someone link the 26 allergens for the EU that @Ilsme referred?

[Graillotion]

As a student of Pharma….I scoff at his 40+.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish, if you are just looking to hydrate your own skin….you should be able to do that in less than 10.  If you are trying to slay the billion dollar cosmetic industry it will take a few more.

I think I tackle a project in a similar manner as Jermolian, I break it into pieces…and build the pieces with some autonomy, and then bring them together.

So I look at humectancy….how do I build that?
I look at barrier function…how do I build that?
Look at lubrication….and how do I build that?
Look at marketing, and claim ingredients…and how does that factor in?
I look at texture…and here is where the wheels come off the bus….and how do I build that.
I look at preservation….and I am a nut in this area….and this can easily bump that number in a hurry…as you are adjusting pH, chelating, adding glycols, and finally a preservative/s.

Pharma might have given you a sneak peek behind the curtain, with mentions of cascading emolliency and NMF….and it just snowballs from there.  But back to your question….when starting out…absolutely keep it simple.  Learn your simple ingredients inside and out…and how adjustments of them change your product.  Then later if you get more creative….you know what will happen when you tweak this or that.  I have to be nearing 100 iterations of the face cream I am working on.  But for me….if I was not experimenting….what else would I be doing?

I will say this…if I had kept it simple…I would have never discovered Pelemol 899 (Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate)….and let me just say….OMG!

[Graillotion]

Maybe hydrophobically modified Chitosan, @Pharma ‘s favorite ingredient might be in this category? 

[Graillotion]

mikethair said:

The allergens analysis in a CoA is important.

Help me learn…as I use some EO’s in a certain project.  When you say allergen analysis in a CofA…. I have not seen such wording.

I will paste an example below…from my supplier.  Does that mean that the TWO items that are listed, those are the probable allergens of the the 67 constituents in that EO?

If so, I did not know that before.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah:

I use Phenethyl Alcohol quite a bit.  At best, you will get a faint Rose scent to any product that contains it.  Sensitive noses will pick up the scent, but generally most people will not identify it.  If you want to use it, it could function as a dual-purpose Preservative ingredient and “Rose scent booster”, but will not fragrance a product on its own.

If you pair it with a Rose Hydrosol, that would work.

Agreed…rose fragrance booster is a good term.  In my face cream I use 3% rose absolute, and I believe the small amount of P alcohol enhances that scent.

I package that product is glass…so no issues.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

 This does NOT carry into the final product, as far as I can tell.

@Graillotion What do you mean by this sentence?

That means….at .35% inclusion rate, I do not smell rose.

[Graillotion]

I use some form of fragrance (EO or FO) in everything, so I guess what I should have said….was at .35% it was completely masked by my fragrance at .5%.

Therefore I can not help in estimating at what level it would serve as a fragrance.

[Graillotion]

It does smell of roses…however I don’t believe it would make a cost effective fragrance.  I use it as PART of preservative package (head-space), and use it at I believe .35%.  This does NOT carry into the final product, as far as I can tell.

If you look at a GCMS of rose absolute…it is not uncommon for it to be 50% PHENYLETHYL ALCOHOL

So….when you smell a rose…you are smelling…phenylethyl alcohol.

[Graillotion]

Google found this:

EPS SEAMAT PA

Technical Datasheet | Supplied by Codif

Water (98%) (and) Saccharide Isomerate (1%) (and) Phenethyl alcohol (1%). EPS SEAMAT PA is a water soluble marine exopolysaccharide with a unique and completely new structure which gives it the property of an immediate mattifying agent. It absorbs the excess of sebum on the surface of the skin and reduces shine within one hour till the end of the day. Neither abrasive nor harsh, its astonishingly light and fluid texture respects oily and combination skins. The purified active ingredient combines the effectiveness of synthetic molecules with the natural properties of plant extracts. Its high molecular weight gives it a particular affinity for skin and surface properties which are of interest in treating cutaneous shine. EPS SEAMAT PA is used in day mattifying liquids, BB creams and products for greasy skin.

[Graillotion]

What about arrowroot…also insoluble in water…but sure goes into water (suspension) easily…and once it meets the oil phase….pow.

Acts as a mild mattifier, and mild textural enhancer.

[Graillotion]

On that aloe butter….there is a small chance that they included some water and an emulsifier to put the aloe into solution (water), and emulsified it to create the perception of a butter….Just depends how they made it (often hydrogenated…hence I usually refer to them as margarine ).
That could be an area of concern (preservation)….
I like to stay away from the fake butters….even though I may use the ingredients they used…at least I know what is going into my products….and can control the quality. (I have yet to find a value in fake butters.)

[Graillotion]

As said above….stay off the mommy blogger sites…as that will all have to be unlearned if you hope to progress in this area.
Secondly…Aloe does not make a butter…that is some man made product….more than likely a lot of soybean margarine….and WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE, as it is a completely fabricated item.
As you did not mention water…your concoction is not an emulsion.
(Delete from your favorites…the site that said glycerin was oil soluble…thank me later.)

[Graillotion]

Yes… process can make a huge difference in the end product…even when the ingredients are identical.

Here is a video a friend sent me recently, that demonstrates this:

Making an Emulsion // Hand Stir VS Homogenizer - YouTube

I guess…the first rule of consistency…would be…..Be consistent.  Once you get your process down, time everything, and make that part of your instructions.  This would also include….what settings your machines were at during each interval.

As far as whitening, many things contribute….from what emulsifier, what fatty alcohol…how yellow you oils/butters are….and of course….process.  So yes…in your last paragraph….all of those are factors will contribute.

[Graillotion]

They work in different ways.

Why choose.

I use them both in the same product.

[Graillotion]

Also you did not list pH.  You can not have a conversation about preservation without the pH being listed.

[Graillotion]

May I ask where you got the information…that Potassium sorbate is a stand alone preservative?

[Graillotion]

A sneak peak at your new world.

[Graillotion]

Illipe and Murumuru are the only two I am using any more…cus I hate the greasy feeling of the others.

I do make a product with intentional greasiness…and I use cocoa.

The key is …. how much you use.  Mommy blogger formulas will make any of the butters feel greasy.  

The face cream I made today…had .75% each of the ones mentioned at the beginning.  3.8% other natural oils, and 5% CCT….Now that feel good.

[Graillotion]

After further review….the above is a slightly different product…but wait….it gets worse.

The recalled product advertises…with gem stones…and is sold in a clear bottle, and looks like a scoop or river gravel from the Ganga river is included in every bottle… OMG.