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Do you not have the water (and alcohol) to add?

Cheaper to buy the ingredient…and add your own water.  

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Pattsi said:

Amazon should have some seller carries these containers.
Aliexpress and alibaba defly have.

Will this type suitable for cream? wouldn’t ball type roll on be better? idk, let’s try.

Yes…there is one seller I have found on Amazon/ETSY/EBAY….probably all the same seller (and only offer the style I like the least).

Cost per unit is too high to get serious about…but maybe OK for samples.  I greatly disdain roll-ons…so that is not an option.  

Thank You

Product looks like this: 

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Cass2021 said:

This thread is making me really really want to try Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate. Anyone know of any other places to purchase this besides ULP? Somewhere with no MOQ ? Thanks in advance:)

Assuming you are in the US?

I was only able to get them from ULP.  Therefore I stayed with Isoamyl laurate, after making a formula with every possible combination…and just barely being able to detect a difference.

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Paprik said:

Niacinamide handles lower pH. (3.5 - 7.5)

Correct….that was just repeating mommy blogger lore (sometime mommy bloggers go to the next level…and become…..repackers…hehehe) ….no (applicable) science.  Mine all goes in at 4.8 pH.  And the word ‘stable’ was misused.  

(That lore came from an old study….high heat….1000 days….and a strong acid.  It is what happens when they read scientific papers…and don’t understand them…..and then they just all repeat what the ignorant one said.)

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Paprik said:

Perfectly said @Graillotion. 

To put it also in another way, imagine those things
Gum, polymer = net
Emulsifier = trap

So emulsifier traps all the oil droplets and prevents them from clumping back together. Where the gum net prevents those emulsified droplets from moving. So they stay put -> harder for them to clump again. This means you get the best stability. Some rheology modifiers (gum, polymers) are better, some worse. Some can stabilize bigger particles, some won’t stabilize those at all. 

So your formula should look similar to this for O/W emulsion:
Water
Humectant - preferably
Water compatible rheology modifier
Lipid
High HLB non-ionic emulsifier (preferable blend for better packing)
(Also good to have a little bit of anionic emulsifier, but if you’re using salt, no point)
Antioxidant (if required)
Chelating agent - preferably
Preservative
+ added extras, such as extracts, fragrance, actives etc … 

Even better said, @Paprik , but I might toss in a ‘barrier function’ to my list of pieces.  

Aloha.

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Learntounlearn said:

 If I use emulsifiers that add viscosity and then include additional fatty alcohols, do I still add any thickener for better stability of end product? If the total oil phase is at 10%

I am not sure I fully understand the question.  What thickeners are you referring to?  To me…water phase thickeners are gums and polymerics….oily phase thickeners are typically fatty alcohols and the likes.  So both groups will add stability.  Therefore I try and keep both in play….using just enough of each to reach desired viscosity, and inherently gaining stability.  Hope I hit what you were asking.

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OliveM 1000 tends to be a ‘soapy’ son of a gun….. and so is…including too much emulsifier.  Guessing rub in…is a little slow/difficult….or do you have lots of dimethicone?

The best replacement for most ingredients…is water.  

Without a posted formula…a little difficult to give input.

Are you adding your OliveM 1000, to the water phase or oil phase?

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BTW….here is a quick example of how to test your polymerics and electrolytes:

Just mix the water, the Sodium Lactate, and the polymeric….shear it together, (at the levels you will formulate at) and observe for 24 hours.

Mystery solved.  My genius mentor says… if there is an incompatibility…it will manifest itself very quickly.

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Well….here is how I would do it….
Zen is not electrolyte resistant…just more tolerant than the others.  With that much sodium lactate….I think you need to stick with the gums…. Try Solagum AX, as I think this one is a little less likely to have the ‘pilling’ effect.  I am not a gum fan….so I typically don’t ever add gums above .25%.
I think Aristoflex AVC give the best haptics…but is one of the most sensitive to the electrolytes, but I have done numerous experiments, and found I can do a blended humectant program with 1.5% sodium lactate, and a mix of others with no ill effect on the gelling.  So also consider lowering the Sodium lactate, and doing a polymeric/gum blend.
I always add my polymerics to the oil phase, before heating.  They just hang out there….doing nothing until the phases are combined.  I do not enjoy working with super thick water phases.  The .25% gum…will already make my water phase as thick as I want to deal with.
Texture and viscosity need to come from multiple angles…or you will get a very monolithic end product…. So you don’t want a huge amount of gelling agents if you want a cream gell.  Just enough to make the cream have something special.  I like to use cetyl esters blended with behenyl alcohol…this is where I feel I get the best creams.  Straight up cetyl for me…gives too unctuous a feel for a face cream…..ok for body and hand.
165 does not give as much viscosity as some of the others…consider adding 1% of Montanov 202 or (God forgive me) OliveM 1000 (M 68 can be subbed for OM 1000)….these will also increase the viscosity.  The latter will make it much heavier….and the former…much lighter.

Aloha. 

IMHO…HEC is just gross…and only used when it is about the only choice (cationics)….just my opinion.

Your Zen level…is also on the ‘about to be gross’ level.  At .5% and above…it gets a nasty jiggle to it.  But maybe the Sodium lactate broke your zen…so you did not notice.  Aristo and EMT 10 will not jiggle like jello at those levels.

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Paprik said:

Hello guys,

 after graduating. 

 

After graduating…. graduating from what?  Sounds like she graduated from one of those ‘online courses’ where they get a certificate of guaranteed incompetence.  

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Cafe33 said:

What finished product are you speaking about? Whipped butters?

That of course….and others.

So provide both answers.  

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DaveStone said:

I’ve used tons of moisturizers of the years.  I have “dehydrated” skin no matter how much liquid I consume. I don’t say “dry” because it doesn’t flake off. Anyhow, pretty much every moisturizer I’ve used has glycerin in it. I don’t know if it’s in small amounts, even if listed as the second or third ingredient. But almost none of them really worked great.

However, after introducing a 5-10% urea toner I made, my facial skin not only looks smoother and healthier, but is starting to appear that way even when not applied.

You sound like someone who could help me evaluate a face cream.  I am developing a multi-humectant cream…including urea.

I live in always above 90% humidity Hawaii…so some areas are hard for me to evaluate!

If interested….send me your mailing address… PM.

Aloha.

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Abdullah said:

Tropolone may be a simple add in for A. Brasiliensis.

This data is from supplier but 0.005% tropolone with ~1% phenoxyethanol is a patented preservative. So it may really be effective that’s why they have patented it.

Thank you, Abdullah….now you have me scouring the net for Tropolone.  Ok group… As I go through the Symrise preservative collection, they have two products that gets their top marks in both categories of bacteria’s and yeast/mold.  One, the Phenoxy/Tropolone (aka SymOcide® PT)  mentioned….and then a little to my surprise, this combo: 1,2-Hexanediol,
Caprylyl Glycol,
Tropolone (aka SymDiol® 68T).  I use the first two as part of every formula (that good old hurdle thing).  Does this sound like a logical…top shelf combination, assuming one does all the other due diligences of formulating?  @Phi@PhilGeis, @MarkBroussard, @chemicalmatt

Aloha

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And works as a chelate to boot?

Tropolone is a new one to me…but I see that Symrise is using it.

@Pharma , you got some fall blooming crocus extract we can make to cover this?   (Or will the Swiss only use Edelweiss?)

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Thank you all for your input, @PhilGeis, @MarkBroussard, @chemicalmatt.  I have no intent on using this product… As Mark described….I use a highly regimented hurdle approach, and proven preservatives.

I simply want to understand things…and be able to have an educated conversation with people that think these are acceptable alternatives.  Trying to make the world a safer place…one skin care product at a time.   

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

FYI:  This preservative is quite expensive relative to its analogs Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate and has to be used a high percentage and getting it shipped in from Germany just adds to the problem with using it.

Am I understanding you to say…. had Evonik used Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate in the same test…about the same result would be expected???  Or a better result would be hoped for?

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

Almost certainly this would not pass a PET, but when they say “used alone” it’s hard to put that in context.  Does “used alone” mean the emulsion contained only the Dermosoft without chelating agents and other preservative boosters (ie: without a hurdle technology approach) or do they mean it is the only presevative used in the emulsion, but it also includes chelating agents and preservative boosters.  The panel of microorganisms tested against in the graphs are the orgaisms used in the USP 51 PCT.

A. Brasiliensis is one of the most difficult organisms to preserve against and you can see that the GMCY had some positive effect, but not substantial enough.  Plus, GMCY really blows the viscosity of your emulsion.

FYI:  This preservative is quite expensive relative to its analogs Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate and has to be used a high percentage and getting it shipped in from Germany just adds to the problem with using it.

Thank you Mark….and yes…I noted the high inclusion rate!

BTW…just for fun….what would be a simple add-in…that is an effective catch for A. Brasiliensis…. Or is there one.  (As devil’s advocate…staying with a semi-natural theme.) 

Aloha.

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MarkBroussard said:

Use Sodium Stearate … it’s less that joyful to work with, particularly for a highly competitive product category with low margins, but if you have your mind set on it, view it as a learning experience.

Thank you for you input Mark.  If there was one thing that popped up over and over…it was SS!  However, I keep finding comments about it being irritating to skin, and lacking in elegance.

At this point…I have no plan on selling this product…just something for me and a few friends… So how would you say…. money is no object…and haptics will be everything.  If I’m giving it away…it better feel da&$m good.   

Any experience using inputs from Penreco?

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ngarayeva001 said:

@Pharma thank you! This is so cool!! I thought it just used in deodorants

It will be a cornerstone of our next deodorant project…hehehe…  

But Chemical Matt turned me on to TEC way back when… I was making mosquito lotion….and needing to extend fragrance/solubilize EO’s. 

Now that I am using a lot of HydroVance….I am also using TEC in about everything. 

Such a diverse ingredient…can’t live without it now.

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Not my area of expertise….but I would assume at some point the answer will relate to how much you are trying to chelate….. Water quality…or other ingredients that might bring something to the table that needs to be chelated.  If you have a pristine ingredient list…I would assume less can be used…than an ingredient list that is bring a lot of chelation needs.

Again…I am no expert…just seems like there might be some logic there.

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INCI?

Xanthan?

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PhilGeis said:

Do not presume you need less due to MIC.   You should use a generally effective level in each application.

What do you think of that combo as a preservative?  I don’t use that product…but I do use all three of those ingredients (plus others) in my formulas….(plus all the other hurdles).

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kconley said:

I am making a gel mask. I notice in the Making Cosmetics Recipe book he uses sodium gluconate at .2%  in their formulas as a stabilizer. Can I use Dermafeel PA as a stabilizer? .  Can I skip it? Also, MC has an emulsifier called ICE SILICONE ( cetyl alcohol, sodium polyacrylate, poly 80, glyceryl stearate, dimethicone, divinyldimethicone/silsequioxane crosspolymer). I don’t want to buy more stuff. Any suggestions for other emulsfiers? This is for an overnight mask. No PVA in it. Pretty much he is using botanicals. 

Either chelate will work as long as you do not have conflicting ingredients elsewhere in the formula.  Do not leave a chelate out if the formula contains water.

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vitalys said:

@Graillotion I would play with Olive squalane wax - it should be rewarding in the stick formulations (Don’t confuse with Olive wax, which is just hydrogenated olive oil) 
Re: Triclosan. As soon as our laboratory has recently looked for Triclosan efficient and safe replacement, we studied O-Cymen-5-Ol. This ingredient has become a leader in tests, including “sniff tests”. It shows excellent deodorizing efficacy at 0.1-0.3%. If you couple it with Triethyl citrate, Ethylhexylglycerin and Trehalose you will achieve even more pronounced effect. 

Thank you.  Triethyl citrate was of course on the list…O-Cymen-5-Ol and the latter two are new to my concept.  I will look into them.

Aloha.

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BTW…as I am going through formulas on ULP…I keep coming across Triclosan….are they still using that?  (Or are these just old formulas?)