[Graillotion]

Amen!

I have done this with several ingredients…and OMG. CCT was one of the worst offenders…went from simply gross to elegant.

The one that really surprised me…was a synthetic ingredient. C12-15 AB. That also went from gross to something Chemical Matt would dream about!

For bonus points….I once tried a natural sourced or green butylene glycol….that was also pure vomit. 🤢

Aloha

[Graillotion]

Is this a trick question?

Remove the salt. Polymerics generally do not appreciate electrolytes. Why is it even in there?

[Graillotion]

Yes…. OM1000 is the soaping king of the industry! 🤢

Have you tried putting the OM 1000 in the water phase? That usually helps quite a bit.

See what you can pull from this thread.

Good luck.

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

chemistscorner.com

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation…

[Graillotion]

Not familiar with the bead company X is using… but first place I’d look for beads….would be Floratech.

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

cargill.com

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

[Graillotion]

I’d probably add a traditional humectant…as HA can be quite drying.

Why two preservatives? Drop the Geogard…as it won’t be doing anything at your pH anyway. You can consider adding something to touch up the YMF…that 9010 might miss.

Here is a sample formula:

0911_1_2005marineserumbtx.pdf 911 KB PDF - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

I’d probably add a traditional humectant…as HA can be quite drying (I’d also drop the inclusion rate…unless you are referencing adding a 1% solution…at 3%.)

Why two preservatives? Drop the Geogard…as it won’t be doing anything at your pH anyway. You can consider adding something to touch up the YMF…that 9010 might miss. Add a chelate.

Collagen is just for claim….so drop the rate about 95%. Still has the same marketability.

Good Luck.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Not my area… but here is a sample formula… probably made by our friend, ChemicalMatt:

ICSC has a couple premade products….you could just repackage….and you’re off to the races. 🙂

• This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

tattoo.pdf 165 KB PDF - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

I guess it depends what your definition of a ‘gel cream’ is. To me…that means a cream that is created with typical emulsifiers, but has a gel undertone.

To create that…. you simply add a gelling agent to your typical emulsion. If you have an existing emulsion as a starting point, this step might cause you to need to lower other thickening agents…should you desire to keep the same viscosity.

HMW HA can be used….as it gels… but the lower weights….not as much. HMW HA can also have the gelling aspect ‘sheared’ out of it… so timing will be important….meaning add the pre-made gel….post emulsion.

What makes a gel-cream magical… is the gel ‘breaking’ upon application. Maybe you have heard the term ‘fast break’. This is when the gelled portion of the emulsion literally breaks….upon coming into contact with the electrolytes on the skin….and dropping their load of water. Hence those gelling agent MOST susceptible to electrolytes…make the most wonderful feel. Here is looking at you …. Aristoflex AVC. Without that fast break… you lose a lot of the magic that a gel-cream can provide. Long and the short…. you need an electrolyte sensitive gelling agent…if you want a mind blowing experience.

There are a few other hacks that can help. I like to include Lauryl laurate as an emollient….as it melts immediately at skin temp…and helps to exacerbate the fast break feel. Combine this with some pentylene (not propylene) glycol…which makes water feel wetter (and many other things)… and pretty soon you have something that feels like a water balloon exploding on the skin.

I guess as a backdrop…. On your primary emulsifiers, it is important not to use something gross and heavy feeling, like e-wax of OliveM 1000. Stick with lighter feeling base emulsifiers like 165 type, or even Mont 202, or my fav….. a combination of those two. Add techniques like I mentioned above….and you got something. Of course, keep your oils below 10%, and your butters below .5%….and off you go. Keep sticky humectants to a minimum and go crazy with the esters….you know…just the usual stuff.

Most gelling agents….don’t like a ton of shear….so address this in your process.

Good luck.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

I suppose the answer depends greatly on where you live. 😆

But since American’s are the only ones dumb enough not to state that…. lets start with this link. 😉

Hydroxypropyl Guar 1131 | MakingCosmetics

makingcosmetics.com

Hydroxypropyl Guar 1131 | MakingCosmetics

Hydroxypropyl Guar - Conditioning Thickener & Stabilizer

[Graillotion]

It is non-ionic…so should play well with other.

Side note: Keep an eye out for pilling… when I tested through it… I recall it causing said issues.

Good luck

technical-bulletin-pc-structure-xl-starch-global-en.pdf 779 KB PDF - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

I see in the Evonik literature…. (about the only company that doesn’t just lie, Lie, LIE about their ingredients) … basically calls it a ‘component’ of preservation… with a tendency to be weaker on Gram + and Yeast.

[Graillotion]

I’ll poke this one again….since I am looking for some.

Any small MOQ in the USA?

I can get it at the Thai place…but hoping for something more local.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

And maybe….just maybe… the Vodka would be the better choice as a preservative. 😂

[Graillotion]

Did you list ALL of your ingredients? Electrolytes come in many forms.

[Graillotion]

Thank you @MarkBroussard for your consideration.

Considering my project is still just a work in progress…but almost done… even 1Kg is a large amount. Hopefully your client will view it as… ‘helping keep the inventory fresh and rotated’.

My data is preliminary, however…the test subject is myself…which helps… but I have been quite impressed with the Serenibiome product. Compared it with two other glycolipids (which were more surfactant oriented) and it has a remarkable impact on the targeted issue. My only drawback was the propanediol base (which is usually something I would love), and my formula is a very dry, and humectant free formula…which will take a few tweaks to accommodate.

I have my next project on the drawing board….one in an area you have worked on in the past… and I have a hunch… it will be a fit for this product as well. 😉 🌋

[Graillotion]

@MarkBroussard We need to talk about splitting a MOQ….or selling me a Kg! 🙂

[Graillotion]

SSG can be added at as little as .25% and have a dramatic effect on emulsion stability. Typically I use PCP a little higher, around .5% inclusion.

Only one way to know how it feels…. try it. But hard to image anything that would feel worse that OM 1000. Any deviation away from that…is usually a good one. 😉

Make sure you are adding the HA post emulsion. It is an emulsion wrecker…and the weaker the emulsion….the more likely it is to raise its evil head.

Good luck.

[Graillotion]

Oh I knew I should have wagered big money… that you would come back with OliveM 1000. 😉 I have no idea why this is pushed on beginners. As my mentor once said…. ‘a piss poor emulsifier’. Now you can typically support these crappie emulsifiers with enough props to make them work… but why? It has one of the worst haptics in all of cosmetics….even if you get it stable?!

So, let’s just ask a general question…. when you survey the industry, and all the top products…. how many use this emulsifier. Yup you guessed it. So, ask yourself…. Why does industry rarely use this emulsifier? People at all levels…are inherently lazy….meaning they want the easiest path to success. That is typically achieved with robust emulsifiers that have good haptics. You know…. the ones you see in all the famous brand products.

Let’s look at what one of the most brilliant chemists had to say about OM1000: ” Cetearyl olivate isn’t an emulsifier but the partner which builds most of the lamellar network. Sorbitan olivate is, according to the old system of HLB, a w/o emulsifier which acts as a promoter of lamellar networks under the right conditions. From a canonical emulsion perspective, it’s a piss poor emulsifier. Stability is only achieved by lamellae.”

So, you are essentially starting with nothing…and hoping that your add-ins will actually hold it together. If you can tolerate the feel of it…and really want to stick with it…. I could do the following. Give it a supporting piece of a strong anionic emulsifier, like SSG or PCP.

The next piece would be process. You will want to shear it hard for about two minutes when phases are combined. Lamellar emulsions can be damaged with shear once they fall below a temp around 60-65. So keep your shear on the warm side. I see you have HA…this is very very disruptive in emulsion creation…as well as can be damaged with shear. It should be added much later in cool-down, and post shear. Probably best added as a pre-hydrated slurry once the potion is below 35.

But definitely look at supporting this Qusai emulsifier with one of the two strong anionics I mentioned. You also have some vague terms like 3-5% vitamins…. who knows what we’re dealing with here.

But my top recommendation would be to …. consider a robust emulsifier to begin with…. you can probably up your haptics at the same time.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

Thank you! Exactly what I was looking for.

I guess beginners think…. this is an all-inclusive list….and if it is not on there….’good to go’. So, I did not see battery acid or Uranium 238…. so they must be acceptable. 🤣

This sentence “It’s against the law for a cosmetic to contain any ingredient that makes the product harmful when consumers use it according to directions on the label.” Just sails over their head.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Equipment is only one piece of the puzzle.

Regarding creating bubbles…it is imperative that the batch size allow for complete submersion of the head. Hence, I cannot make a batch smaller than 150 grams….to meet this criteria. I also use narrow ‘tall form’ beakers to help facilitate this aspect.

Secondly, without the formula…. we have no idea what leads to instability. Cannot guess at a problem or solution without more detail.

If you ask me…. why your shirt chokes your neck…. and don’t send a picture… I cannot tell you….the shirt is on backwards. 😉

[Graillotion]

Have you worked with this product @MarkBroussard ?

I have to say….skeptical me… started working with this a couple of weeks ago…along with two other additional glycolipids…. and I have been utterly shocked.

I have had a lifelong sensitivity to deodorant (any form other than aerosol, and my foray into glycolipids is the first days in my entire life… where a non-aerosol deodorant did not give me at least a tickle of irritation. I have spent the last two years trying to get to this point… and all of a sudden…. WHAM to the face….here yah go!

I need to do some more testing…as I used the Solabia material at 4X the rate of the others (per mfg suggestion). But I am positively optimistic.

Without stealing someone’s thunder…. a USA repacker will soon be offering two forms of Glycolipids, albeit not the Solabia one/s.

[Graillotion]

My point is… without the gel ‘breaking’…..you really don’t have anything….and it is a moot point. No amount of HA… will have the break of something like AVC. Might give a cooler feel…but no magic.

I tried to steer towards a polymeric that will ‘break’…. otherwise… you really won’t have much specialness. 🙂

I actually dislike HA…. at every level. 😆

• This reply was modified 4 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Try this place….a lot of people down under…and globally use them:

Search (myskinrecipes.com)

myskinrecipes.com

Search

Search

[Graillotion]

Very lucky indeed! I have learned long ago….not to ask re-packers questions. Not only could they not answer questions, they could not even understand the questions. Feeble attempts of ‘cut and paste’ answers from marketing material was the best that could be achieved. The saddest thing I have ever seen…was on beginner forums… they would refer to these clueless wonders…as….. wait for it …. “Cosmetic chemists!” OMG….the insult of insults…for those that actually went to school! 😳

[Graillotion]

😂 Sometimes it helps to know….whom owns the retailer…then you can be assured that the information is worthless! On that note….what retailer have you ever found…that knew which way was up… with the exception of Simply Ingredients (speaking on behalf of USA only retailers)?

Preservative not working…. is the least of my concerns…. those types are a dime a dozen and available on every street corner. In all probability…if the OP returns to where the original information was sourced…. will end up with something almost as bad, or just as bad. My concerns with Company X… is the flippant use of any old petrol based preservative, much like their business model of following the example of Grape Fruit Seed Extract, and using an exemption not to list it on the INCI, the real preservative…. and then pretending it is natural….when it is actually less natural than some of those that don’t pretend.

With no mention of chelate, pH, glycols…etc… What can we really hope for?

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Graillotion.