[Graillotion]

Tromethamine, Triethanolamine (TEA), Sodium or potassium hydroxide, and even L-arginine if you have a natural leaning.

Good luck.

• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

If it is just a tiny adjustment….sometimes you can give it a nudge with your chelate…. look at what Sodium Phytate vs Phytic acid does.

[Graillotion]

When we start at the very beginning of cosmetics…. we get excited about this oil, and that oil…and the fatty acid profile. Later we start to learn that the fatty acids are actually part of a triglyceride, and

fatty acid content has little bearing on skin performance, other than some haptic variation, and rate of absorption. Along with this line of thought, we also discover some TEWL variability.

Not until we begin to realize that skin essentially has very little mechanisms to break triglycerides does it start to dawn on us… why the people that know the most about oils, cosmetics and skin…. mainly use CCT…. instead of some exotic oil that some blogger wrote about the magical properties. The more we learn about skin… we learn that skin is not built from the outside in, but from the inside out. Along these lines, the skin is NOT looking for or typically utilizing building material that gets smeared on the surface.

Triglyceride breakdown… happens readily in our digestive system, hence consuming healthy oils will have a dramatic effect on health. The skin however has very little enzymatic activity, and about any triglyceride breakdown is going to be miniscule and done by the local microbiome residents (bacteria). And as my mentor likes to say… no one works for free… meaning if they go to the effort of breaking a triglyceride, it is usually done so it can eat part of the results.

The more you learn about the oils…. the less exciting cosmetics gets. Hence, I often encourage those starting out…not to learn the ins and outs of oils… as you can quickly lose your fervor once you really start to understand things. Oils are basically claim ingredients to help sell the product. Keep them on that level…. use the fake claims to help you sell the product. Put a drop in the formula, and sing the praises for hours, but then make sure you actually formulate with the functions you need…. elegance, moisturizing, a bit of barrier….and lots and lots of marketing.

Here is a reasonably good video that explains some of the oil concept. She is very careful not to fully steal Christmas from the Who’s in Whoville…. but if you go into it with a glimpse of what really is behind the curtain…. it is quite revealing.

Good Luck!

Skincare Oils and Free Fatty Acids: The Science | Lab Muffin Beauty Science (youtube.com)

[Graillotion]

BTW…. as I was mowing the lawn….(time in which I do much pondering) …. I don’t recall that you have shown your formula. Bubbles in formulas can often come from a ‘reaction’ beyond just being introduced by equipment. You haven’t done anything crazy…. like putting baking soda in your formula, have you? Reactions can come from many ingredients…not just sodium bicarbonate and an acid.

[Graillotion]

Aloha… A few things. Most of us would not call a fatty alcohol a co-emulsifier. Don’t get me wrong…without them it is difficult to make a good robust emulsion. But based on the definition, and where they work (between the phases) they are better called ….. emulsion builders. They are often added as a component of an emulsifier….ala …. Mont 68 you mentioned. (Often used as a stretcher…to hit that 4 to 1 emulsifier to oil phase for potent emulsifiers.) They certainly have qualities associated with emulsification…ala cetearyl alcohol + Ceteareth-20…and so on. Sometimes used as the GMS type piece, based on some technical aspects.

You should make great steps forward with stability with the SSG.

The reason Glyceryl Stearate SE probably didn’t work for you….is that it requires a higher pH to function, and this is often left out of the seller’s propaganda material. Albeit it would NEVER use an emulsifier that needs a higher pH to function. I have skin! 😂

For a face product….I am almost always using Mont 202 as a starting point. Couldn’t have a more different haptic from M 68….which I agree….is heavy and occlusive feeling.

I typically use M 202 + 165 + kiss of anionic (PCP or SSG). I know the middle piece will preclude you…but this always makes bulletproof magic. Not sure if PCP (Potassium Cetyl Phosphate) fits into agenda based formulating…but if it does….certainly one to look at! SSG can be used at lower pH’s than PCP.

Good luck.

• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

As Perry mentioned, incubation is the typical method for simulating time in cosmetics. I believe your ingredient is also light sensitive, so if you have the option to use clear containers, and bright lighting…that should take it one more level up.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

I was mucking around in old forums…and maybe there is a nugget hidden in this old thread:

(Pharma always had good insights in the deep chemistry.)

The low down on soaping…the how’s and why’s (in lotion). - Chemists Corner

• This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  Graillotion.

chemistscorner.com

The low down on soaping...the how's and why's (in lotion). - Chemists Corner

If there is one thing I am passionate about.... I hate lotions that soap.....(create a white residue on skin, and must be worked in with…

[Graillotion]

Amen!

I have done this with several ingredients…and OMG. CCT was one of the worst offenders…went from simply gross to elegant.

The one that really surprised me…was a synthetic ingredient. C12-15 AB. That also went from gross to something Chemical Matt would dream about!

For bonus points….I once tried a natural sourced or green butylene glycol….that was also pure vomit. 🤢

Aloha

[Graillotion]

Is this a trick question?

Remove the salt. Polymerics generally do not appreciate electrolytes. Why is it even in there?

[Graillotion]

Yes…. OM1000 is the soaping king of the industry! 🤢

Have you tried putting the OM 1000 in the water phase? That usually helps quite a bit.

See what you can pull from this thread.

Good luck.

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

chemistscorner.com

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation…

[Graillotion]

Not familiar with the bead company X is using… but first place I’d look for beads….would be Floratech.

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

cargill.com

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

Botanical Beads | Personal Care Ingredients | Cargill Beauty | Cargill

[Graillotion]

I’d probably add a traditional humectant…as HA can be quite drying.

Why two preservatives? Drop the Geogard…as it won’t be doing anything at your pH anyway. You can consider adding something to touch up the YMF…that 9010 might miss.

Here is a sample formula:

0911_1_2005marineserumbtx.pdf 911 KB PDF - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

Thanx for the warning….I had considered coming back for a day or two…. in search of people to test a couple products.

A deodorant for sensitive skin…

and

Looking for some people to test an acne cream.

Maybe I will…maybe I won’t. All I know….is I haven’t missed it…. at all!

EWG …. as far as I can tell…this is an organization designed to employ the worthless offspring of politicians, who go to school to see who can smoke the biggest bong….get the diploma because of who was writing the check…. and have utterly no function in society. Where yah gonna stick them? I fully believe EWG was created to hide these kids from the world! 😂 You know….where Hunter would work….if he would work.

[Graillotion]

Skin is acidic….across the board. It varies from location to location on your body….so anyone that says your skin is pH of _____. Doesn’t know much about skin. We abuse our skin and the acid mantle with frequency, but fortunately it has coping mechanisms. However… it is best to keep the abuse to a minimum. This is why we rinse off soap after using it….and not leave it in place. Recovery time is longer than you think….measured in hours. This is why well-made skincare is typically on the acidic side of the scale…to keep your skin happy.

So back to your soap-based emulsifier… you are not understanding the chemistry… the reason your emulsion likely failed….. if you lowered the pH back to skin friendly…then you ‘un-made’ the soap. The emulsifier simply no longer works….if you lower the pH. A soap like that has to remain a soap, if you wish it to also remain an emulsifier…. can’t just take it there for 5 min…and then reverse the structure that makes it work.

Things like stearic acid…can be used as a non-soap. It will thicken an emulsion that is acidic, but won’t emulsify it. It will thicken AND emulsify, if you take it to a high enough pH (it becomes a stearate soap). I have seen lots of people become confused with this concept. You often see it presented incorrectly on the beginner blogger sites/schools.

• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh….wait. I think you are confused (re-read your comment). Almost all products will list the effect it has on the pH of a formula. THIS IN NO WAY OR MEANS….what is the functional range. This is a set of numbers provided to the formulator….to show them what adding this product will do to an established pH….so they can be prepared and can act accordingly. Just about EVERY quality ingredient provider will provide this information….if their product will influence formula pH.

pH that is operates best at…. in the formula…. is a completely different topic. They don’t like to tell you that….as it can possibly limit sales to those that don’t have full chemistry skills.

• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

😂 It will be a little difficult to help you….if you believe what is written on the internet by sellers and manufacturers. 😂 Take a close look at GMS SE … and put your chemistry hat on…and ask why they list it as anionic?

Basically, they are trying to make a potassium stearate soap out of it. Put your soap making hat on…how do you make soap? Yup with pH. I’ll let you decide what pH it takes to make that into an anionic soap…. no fun if I spoon-feed you the answers. Ask yourself….why didn’t it work….when you used it? 😉

Stearic acid is non-ionic…but becomes mildly anionic once it is saponified.

BTW… GSC is not a robust emulsifier. A decent emulsifier, that usually feels good. The SSG & PCP…. you can use the words ‘robust’ with. 🙂

Read last sentence of attached file….they hint towards reality. 😉

63104-SustOleo-GMS-SE-Product-Bulletin.pdf 44 KB PDF - Click to view

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[Graillotion]

I do not let entities with agendas and a lack of science knowledge dictate how I formulate…

But when I did work with emulsifiers that fit agendas… Heliofeel aka: Glyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin was one of the better ones I come across.

That would lead into exploring options with Glyceryl Stearate Citrate…and several of the polyglycerols.

I use SSG a lot…but only ever in a supporting role to bring an anionic kiss to a non-ionic formula.

[Graillotion]

And maybe….just maybe… the Vodka would be the better choice as a preservative. 😂

[Graillotion]

Did you list ALL of your ingredients? Electrolytes come in many forms.

[Graillotion]

Thank you @MarkBroussard for your consideration.

Considering my project is still just a work in progress…but almost done… even 1Kg is a large amount. Hopefully your client will view it as… ‘helping keep the inventory fresh and rotated’.

My data is preliminary, however…the test subject is myself…which helps… but I have been quite impressed with the Serenibiome product. Compared it with two other glycolipids (which were more surfactant oriented) and it has a remarkable impact on the targeted issue. My only drawback was the propanediol base (which is usually something I would love), and my formula is a very dry, and humectant free formula…which will take a few tweaks to accommodate.

I have my next project on the drawing board….one in an area you have worked on in the past… and I have a hunch… it will be a fit for this product as well. 😉 🌋

[Graillotion]

@MarkBroussard We need to talk about splitting a MOQ….or selling me a Kg! 🙂

[Graillotion]

SSG can be added at as little as .25% and have a dramatic effect on emulsion stability. Typically I use PCP a little higher, around .5% inclusion.

Only one way to know how it feels…. try it. But hard to image anything that would feel worse that OM 1000. Any deviation away from that…is usually a good one. 😉

Make sure you are adding the HA post emulsion. It is an emulsion wrecker…and the weaker the emulsion….the more likely it is to raise its evil head.

Good luck.

[Graillotion]

Oh I knew I should have wagered big money… that you would come back with OliveM 1000. 😉 I have no idea why this is pushed on beginners. As my mentor once said…. ‘a piss poor emulsifier’. Now you can typically support these crappie emulsifiers with enough props to make them work… but why? It has one of the worst haptics in all of cosmetics….even if you get it stable?!

So, let’s just ask a general question…. when you survey the industry, and all the top products…. how many use this emulsifier. Yup you guessed it. So, ask yourself…. Why does industry rarely use this emulsifier? People at all levels…are inherently lazy….meaning they want the easiest path to success. That is typically achieved with robust emulsifiers that have good haptics. You know…. the ones you see in all the famous brand products.

Let’s look at what one of the most brilliant chemists had to say about OM1000: ” Cetearyl olivate isn’t an emulsifier but the partner which builds most of the lamellar network. Sorbitan olivate is, according to the old system of HLB, a w/o emulsifier which acts as a promoter of lamellar networks under the right conditions. From a canonical emulsion perspective, it’s a piss poor emulsifier. Stability is only achieved by lamellae.”

So, you are essentially starting with nothing…and hoping that your add-ins will actually hold it together. If you can tolerate the feel of it…and really want to stick with it…. I could do the following. Give it a supporting piece of a strong anionic emulsifier, like SSG or PCP.

The next piece would be process. You will want to shear it hard for about two minutes when phases are combined. Lamellar emulsions can be damaged with shear once they fall below a temp around 60-65. So keep your shear on the warm side. I see you have HA…this is very very disruptive in emulsion creation…as well as can be damaged with shear. It should be added much later in cool-down, and post shear. Probably best added as a pre-hydrated slurry once the potion is below 35.

But definitely look at supporting this Qusai emulsifier with one of the two strong anionics I mentioned. You also have some vague terms like 3-5% vitamins…. who knows what we’re dealing with here.

But my top recommendation would be to …. consider a robust emulsifier to begin with…. you can probably up your haptics at the same time.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

Thank you! Exactly what I was looking for.

I guess beginners think…. this is an all-inclusive list….and if it is not on there….’good to go’. So, I did not see battery acid or Uranium 238…. so they must be acceptable. 🤣

This sentence “It’s against the law for a cosmetic to contain any ingredient that makes the product harmful when consumers use it according to directions on the label.” Just sails over their head.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Equipment is only one piece of the puzzle.

Regarding creating bubbles…it is imperative that the batch size allow for complete submersion of the head. Hence, I cannot make a batch smaller than 150 grams….to meet this criteria. I also use narrow ‘tall form’ beakers to help facilitate this aspect.

Secondly, without the formula…. we have no idea what leads to instability. Cannot guess at a problem or solution without more detail.

If you ask me…. why your shirt chokes your neck…. and don’t send a picture… I cannot tell you….the shirt is on backwards. 😉