[Graillotion]

Mandy007 said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Mandy:

Two options:  (1) Heat the Allantoin + 1,3-Propanediol to 50C … should dissolve right away.  Or, as @ketchito mentioned, just add the Allantoin directly to the emulsion when it cools to 50C and homogenize.  The Allantoin will dissolve in the emulsion.

 If I heat the Allantoin in the 1,3 Propanediol, how do I avoid recrystallization ?  I know allantoin is famous for recrystallizing if heated hence why I have not tried any methods that require me to heat it. 

I think the main reason people get recrystallization is because they are trying to over saturate the solution with allantoin.  Keeping your levels at the .5, you should be fine.  However, to be nit-picky…it should be .5% of your water soluble ingredients…hehehe… not .5% of total formula.

As Mark said…a little heat…should make that slip right into solution…. but not necessary. 

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If looking for a (more) natural replacement for D5, you could look at 

Neossance Hemisqualane

aka: INCI: C13-15 Alkane

I make an emulsified deo, but it is a thick cream.  I tried to replace the D5 with this, and I could not get the desired effect, but am told it is the closest of the ‘more natural’ options.

Just my opinion, but if I were going to make a water thin emulsion…. I would probably start my journey with sucrose stearate as a backbone.  (Will probably need a little support.)

I also concur that using something like CCT vs a liquid wax, might be prudent.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

I have seen this story recounted before.  In those cases, the client hamstrung the chemist right out of the gate, with wanting poor choices, likes oils and butters included in a deodorant.

Typically, it is far easier to start over and reformulate, than try and make the poor choices fit a product they should not be in.  Sometimes, a few $$$ poorer and a little life experience down the road, one becomes more open to different ideas.

Often times Indie brands will put tiny amounts of interesting sounding ingredients into a formula (which has no effect or sensory), and then someone trying to dupe their success gets caught up in their sleight of hand.

Your issues might get solved for free…if you post the formula.

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Camel how do humectants like glycerin and propanediol help with preservation? Not doubting you I just honestly dont know.

They lower the water activity…. Good research project for you.  

You know…any product that has enough glycols…can be self-preserving.  Lots of the extracts and the likes sold on by repackers…are preserved with this method.

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ascorbic acid, NAC, Sodium metabisulfite, Sodium thiosulfate (sodium thiosulphate)

One of the last two (I forget which one at the moment)…is what they sell the mommy bloggers as an anti-browning agent for vanillin.  They sell it under the INCI: Fragrance.   

The last 3…are all pretty fragrant…but used at very low rates…so typically if you have any fragrance at all in the product, it will not carry through.

Why do you think you have oxidation (in the water phase)?  Make sure you are not confusing something like tannins in tea…with oxidation.

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Syl said:

@Graillotion, Thank you for this vendor info and sharing your ice cream maker for making lotion. I really appreciate your comments in this forum.  

Sadly…as meticulous as I am in formulating…the same aspect applies to COG’s.  Even though I am basically paying worst case scenario…repacker prices, I still search for the best value.  VALUE….not lowest cost.  I actually waste a lot of money…buying the same thing from all possible vendors, then deciding who has the best version of item X…and then I pay WHATEVER price it takes, to get the best version….Go figure.

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Hehe…pick your $15 value.  I suppose one could argue…the one on the right…takes up too much space? 

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Shiro said:

GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion i dont know the answers to your question about soaping but i really want to try TEC, i’ve been curious about it for a while. Is there anywhere to buy it in smaller amounts? I havent seen it anywhere. You said you use it in deodorant, does it help deodorize? 

I recently bought 80mL TEC at Perfumer’s Apprentice.

Many, MANY times more expensive there.  For the same $15 you paid…you can get half a kilo here:  Buy Triethyl Citrate (TEC) Online Store - Essential Natural Oils

TEC is a really inexpensive ingredient, not sure why they always want to tear your head off?

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion any specific way you then mix the oil phase containing zen into the water or it doesn’t really matter?

GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion any specific way you then mix the oil phase containing zen into the water or it doesn’t really matter?

Doesn’t seem to matter…. I use moderate shear for two min, followed by ice cream maker stirring to full cool down.

Keep in mind…it does not dissolve or hydrate in oil, so it will basically just be sediment in the oil phase until it meets with water.

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I use Zen extensively in creams.  I always add it to the oil phase.  It does nothing there…just sits…so time is irrelevant.  Then when phases are combined it is activated.  I do not like working with thick water phases, so this alleviates this concern.

But the answer is…it works in any phase.  Just use the one you prefer.

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion what ratio do you typically use when solubilizing oils with it? I know it varies greatly with the type of oil but for instance if I am currently using Polysorbate 20/EO at 4:1 is it typical to use about the same amount of TEC, or less/more?

And does it ever cause a ph drift downward?

Well…I have only used it for EO’s on a mosquito lotion.  In that project I used it at 1%.

I think pH drift tends to upwards…things like urea.  And TEC is good at keeping it where you set it.

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

I use electric ice cream makers.  I am lazy (or smart).

I have several sizes….they make tiny ones that are perfect for my 150 gram batches.

@Graillotion I love this idea!!

This is the one I use….perfect for 150-225 gram batches.  Feels a little bit like a piece of junk…and I figured I’d get 10-20 uses out of it….but 100’s of uses later…she is still chugging.

Amazon.com: DASH My Pint Electric Ice Cream Maker Machine for Gelato, Sorbet + Frozen Yogurt with Mixing Spoon & Recipe Book (Organic, Sugar Free, Flavored Healthy Snacks + Dessert for Kids & Adults) 0.4qt - Aqua: Home & Kitchen

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I use electric ice cream makers.  I am lazy (or smart).

I have several sizes….they make tiny ones that are perfect for my 150 gram batches.

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I get my TEC here: Buy Triethyl Citrate (TEC) Online Store - Essential Natural Oils

You can get a pound for $15.  Don’t think you’ll find it small pak…much cheaper.  The perfumers try and tear your head off.

As far as using it in deo….in has to be part of a system…not just something you toss in…and hope for the best.  As a simple illustration…it is citric acid held in reserve…and the idea is…it will release free citric acid as it is needed…keeping the pH in the pit low.  Therefore…if you toss it in with high pH ingredients like baking soda (yuck), it would be counter intuitive.  But an excellent building block in a low pH system.

Aloha.

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Why not use something better…without the smell?  O-Cymen-5-Ol.

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion oh no BA is not on the up and up?! That’s too bad. I think I get MCT oil from them. Very happy with jedwards and the others though.

What is triethyl citrate exactly and what do you use it for?

A company like that won’t cheat of every oil…just the ones that are costly.  It is easy to test….order something like Tamanu, or Black seed…something that clearly will have a color or smell or texture…and you can judge. 🙂

The beauty of soybean oil…is it is a very nice…and an overlooked oil…so the customers that get it will write rave reviews.    They are so bold…that they don’t even blend the oils…to try and give a hint of scent or color of the authentic oil.

TEC???  Omg…can’t live without it.  Quite the multifunctional…from fragrance fixer, to pH maintainer, emollient, solubilizer, to 2nd largest ingredient in my deo.  (Triple ester of citric acid.)  Might be easier to ask…what can’t it do?

EnSense Silk TEC | Triethyl Citrate | Acme-Hardesty 

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion i believe i’ve come across the same shady seller, that seemed to have every oil and they were impossibly
cheap and would aways ship from india. Think I still have some of their stuff laying around. I also thought about getting their stuff tested but had no idea, and still have no idea, how to do that. 

Now I get most of my oils from Jedwards, is this one of the reputable sellers you were talking about? They seem legit. What are some other ones?

Sadly, there are many shady sellers.  The one you speak of, is at the top of many lists.  The one I was referring to…is US based, and might have the initials (BA).   

Jedwards is a top-notch source as would be NDA, and MC, a few other good sellers would also include LC, and FSS.  This is not an exhaustive list, but should give you enough sources.

Simply Ingredients would be another source beyond reproach, but she has a very limited supply, but this is supposed to be increasing over time.

To the wider group, as I have started buying my TEC here: Buy Triethyl Citrate (TEC) Online Store - Essential Natural Oils  And they seem to have a wide offering of products….any thoughts?

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Pb610 said:

Also came across this short study comparing niacinamide with d-panthenol, might be of some use: https://sphinxsai.com/2016/ph_vol9_no7/1/(99-104)V9N7PT.pdf

Here’s the summary:

I could not open that study…what was the inclusion rate they were using?

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Here is what jumps out at me…. High rate of glycerin… Is it not a bit tacky at that rate?  There are some here, that worship at the feet of glycerin, but I am not one of them.   I prefer a blended approach.  Humectants do work in slightly different ways…and perform differently in different humidity’s.  So, you have a very monolithic approach.
I think most of the research on B3 was done at 4%, so not sure what you hope to gain at that level.  Higher rates of B3 are mainly just marketing.

Petrolatum - not a big fan.
Dimethicone - I love it.
Butter Pearls - I love it.
HEC - not a big fan.

Why SA?

When I worked through the crosspolymers…I found them quite obtrusive at higher levels.  I think I found my happy place at .5%.  What are you trying to accomplish with them?

So, I thought you were going with HEC…due to trying to be natural…but the balance of the formula does not suggest that….so why not a polymeric (or even a nice gum blend)?

I am big into the theory of cascading emollience.  But I am always chasing the rainbow.  Just saying…even if just for yourself…. treat yourself.  

Best of Luck and enjoy the journey.

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I am more interested….to hear what you kept…and why. 

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@Pharma, @chemicalmatt, @MarkBroussard

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ggpetrov said:

I am not sure if this workflow works for these emulsifiers! That’s the workflow you can go when you work with the Olivem or Polyaquol, and that’s because they can act as the only emollients in those cream gels. In my experience these cream gels are very light and super fast absorbing, but they are more expensive too, because you should increase the amount of the emulsifier. 

When I switched from the oil phase to water… life (and the product) got ever so much better!  

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chemicalmatt said:

@Abdullah the GMO does not like to support LLC formation like GMS does, so negative on that. The GMS alone may support with certain emulsifier combinations, but not a singular one like you describe. I’ve always used this ratio for LLC network formation: cetyl alcohol : glyceryl stearate @ 3:1. Seems to work even with those #%$@!! glycosides. The other “hack” with LLC is slow mixing while slow cooling. Too much shear at too steep a thermocline and you end up with soup.

I was under the impression…the lamellar emulsion could take some shear while it was very hot (just combined), but then to remove shear after a minute or two….and stir down to room temp, with no enhanced cooling?  Would you agree?  @chemicalmatt

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GeorgeBenson said:

@emma1985 nice videos! I’ve read that you shouldn’t use high shear mixing with polymers but you seem to be using your stick blender on the last video without problems, so is that not true or do you just have to be careful with it? 

@Paprik , or course you can answer this question yourself, very easily.  Just take water and the polymeric of your choice (at ratios you intend to formulate at)….and mix with the amount of shear you anticipate using to create a final product….judge your two ingredient mix for the next day or so…and you’ll have your answer.

When you destroy a polymeric…it is VERY obvious.  I use this same method for testing electrolyte tolerance….just take the formula ratio of water, polymeric, and electrolyte you are considering adding….and emulsify.  The tolerance is IMMEDIATELY evident.  You don’t have to make a whole formula to know, in fact….the balance of the formula will often hide what you are trying to discover.

In case you don’t want to do your own test…. I have made every possible combination of carbomer and the top used polymerics…and with 2 minutes of moderate shear, and all is good. (I use the same Dynamic Mini Pro as Emma, but I have a head that gives MUCH more shear.) 

The context of those mfg comments…are more along the lines of excessive shear.  As you can imagine….the large amount of mfg’s that use polymerics…did NOT throw out their Silverson’s, to add polymerics to their line-up.   

Aloha.

@emma1985