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PhilGeis said:

You can manage some greater specs but a high count will likely throw your finished product out any appropriate spec and may well include objectionable and contamination risk microorganisms.  How will you bring the finished product into spec? FDA does not like folks who use preservatives to control manuf risk.

You’re putting at risk not only the product but also your manufacturing facility.

Not AT ALL familiar with what kind of equipment a mfg plant might have….but could material like this be irradiated as it came into the facility?  Hehehe….or does that fly in the face of ‘natural’?  

[Graillotion]

I did not get my current bottle here….but most people sell it.

Rosemary Antioxidant CO2 Extract (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

Rosemary Oleoresin (ROE) | Lotioncrafter

Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) (formulatorsampleshop.com)

I don’t recall seeing it much above the 7% range.

Aloha.

@Anca_Formulator 

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We better not even mention what a few drops of Buah Merah oil does to one of my creams.  (Few drops in 150 gram trial)    Good thing is is only in there for the ORAC value.   **WARNING**  if you apply Buah Merah neat…you will look like TRUMP!     *** DISCLAIMER*** Samples get used so fast…I have NO IDEA how long the color lasts.  :p

[Graillotion]

As mentioned above…I use MT-E, ROE high in carnosic acid, and ascorbyl palmitate, and sans the high temp testing…product keeps color for a year, in a dark glass jar.

It is a 54-ingredient pain cream…so there is the possibility that other factors are at play.

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Pharma said:

BTW two more things:

1: I was a bit astonished that propanediol esters weren’t used as preservatives… 

@Pharma I should have asked earlier… what about just plain propanediol…(not the esters) where does it fall into this discussion.  I use it as a humectant, with the hope that it is also contributing to the overall preservation.

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Sounds like you have already checked with Floratech (as Mark suggested)…but the first place my mind goes…when I see Jojoba esters….as that is the INCI for one of their beads.

Interactive_Particles_Brochure.pdf (floratech.com)

If the beads…are dissolving/breaking down on application….sounds like they are using there Florasomes or their Floraspheres, which are much softer, and break under moderate pressure.

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One more extension of this concept… If C 10 is the optimal cell membrane disruptor….and I did notice a number of vendors promoting C 10 for deodorant actives….something near and dear to me…as I am putting the wraps on an emulsified deo… Would that mean C 10 type would be the most effective in deodorant?

Or did @Pharma mean that C 10 was the optimal balance between cell membrane disruption….and water solubility?

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Let me take this one step further…into preservation…. We see a trend of brands trying to ‘naturally preserve’ with primarily glycols.  If they primarily disrupt the cell membrane of bacteria….I always assumed this was softening up….laying the ground work for ….. something else to come in…and finish off the bacteria… like phenoxyethanol (or others).   So, is it realistic to expect industry acceptable bacteria protection from JUST cell membrane disruptors?  Does not seem super logical to me…. But hey…I was a business major.   

@Pharma  @PhilGeis

For the moment…I am not including yeast/mold/fungi…. just a bacteria discussion.

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Yes, I have about the same question….  Is a blend of glycols better than say…just more of one good one?

I always assumed that glycols were cell membrane disruptors….so if all the longer chain ones simply disrupt cell membranes….can a synergy be created…or a single good glycol in functional amounts will suffice?

Aloha.

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Formulator said:

6 carbon glycols: hexylene glycol, and 1,2-hexanediol (when OH groups are specifically at 1st and 2nd position); 7C 1,2-heptanediol, 8C caprylyl glycol, 10C decylene glycol. It’s good to keep in mind that increasing chain length decreases water solubility.
Some materials which are used similarly to previously mentioned diols are ethylhexylglycerin and caprylyl glyceryl ether.

Thank you…I think I must have most of the bases covered…as I use pentylene glycol, a blend of 1,2-hexanediol and 1,2-octanediol, and EHG in every formula.  
The only ones I am lacking are the 7 and the 10.

[Graillotion]

Just for giggles…and knock-outs…. do you have TSGD/GLDA?

Try a formula subbing the sodium phytate with this.

I have learned…there are fewer possible issues with this chelate.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Anca_Formulator

(2)   Not unusual for an emulsion that is blue at RT from the inclusion of Blue Tansy oil to turn brown in the oven.  Your base prior to the inclusion of blue tansy oil would have been a light beige.

I use BT EO….and have not had the issue…but I use a pretty maxed out AntiOx program.  The usual E + ROE but then I also add ascorbyl palmitate that purportedly really enhances the performance of E.  I cannot support this comment…just what I heard on the street.  Granted…it works for me.  

 I did not test under elevated temps…just time….a year at room temp.  As you are aware…sometimes the stress test will produce results that will essentially never manifest in real life.

** Are you using BT that is beyond reproach?  I am guessing that would be a TOP choice for a vendor to adulterate.  (I get mine from New Directions Aromatics.)

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Hehe….double lecithin source…. Isn’t that just taunting fate?

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If you’re using the gum….at low levels….I doubt you would notice a swap to Solagum AX.

As far as the emulsifier….yeah…you’d have to try a few things.

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Any way to work around your two lecithin sources?  Pretty sure that is the number one bug food in the world.  

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Isaac52 said:

One of my friend even said that i can use grapeseed oil as an oxidant because it contains also vitamin E.

Friends are great to have…but not always a good source of information.  

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ngarayeva001 said:

Have you got a microscope? It might worth the investment if you are interested in droplets size/shape. SWIFT Microscope Compound Trinocular SW350T, Research-Grade for Lab, 40X-2500X Magnification, with Wide-Field 10X, 25X Eyepieces, Siedentopf Head, Camera-Compatible, Mechanical Stage, Abbe Condenser https://amzn.eu/d/1fNsmTb

Yes…my lack of looking at my emulsions through a microscope is for lack of a microscope.

Thank you for the info…I’ll have to look into this.

I always say…. I’ll design one more formula…and be done.  Of course, this is never true…hehehe.

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“Broad Spectrum” is a marketing term.  Not a scientific term.   

Lesson #2 in cosmetics:  NEVER trust the marketing material produced to sell you ingredients.  

Regarding Vitamin E

There is a video in this link that does a good job at helping understand Vitamin E, inclusion and forms.

Please list your form of E…as ‘oil’ tells us nothing.  

How to Make Cosmetics with Vitamin E Antioxidant (ulprospector.com)

For chelator, EDTA is of course the best, but some people will also use sodium phytate, or GLDA /  TSGD (the latter two are a little more biodegradable.) Any of them are monumentally better than…nothing.  

(Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate)

[Graillotion]

Oh wow…

The BIG first…you are using a preservative that does not function well (probably at all) at the pH you have!

So lower the pH with citric or lactic acid to about 4.8.

You forgot your chelate.

You forgot the humectant….start with glycerin.

Dimethicone will alleviate the soaping.

Cut vitamin E in half.

Give that a shot….and see how it turns out.  

But KUDOS for knowing your pH!!!

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Anca_Formulator said:

.

@Graillotion: Thank you for sharing your source. Funny, the bulk Caprylyl Glycol I found was also from MakingCosmetics

So you’ve used Hexanediol CG in emulsions? How did it affect the viscosity? 

I use that in every formula…just part of what I call…the structural bones.  All my formulas tend to have the same structural bones, and I just hang different ornaments on them.

 As I am using the combo at a low rate (.5%), I have not noticed a viscosity decrease, albeit I have not made a formula with and without.  So, since it is one of my building blocks from the beginning of each formula, and the thickeners are built around it… I have never had that ‘introductory moment’ where it is introduced into the formula…and I go…’dang’.

I also use a pretty elaborate grouping of emulsifiers, and this may also have an effect…in that there is not just one or two players doing all the work.

I also use a number of thickeners that take time to show their viscosity, so I never know final viscosity until a day or two later.

As I love many of my viscosity builders…I am usually fine tuning a formula, by having to reduce my loves…. myristyl myristate, cetyl palmitate, behenyl alcohol, polymerics and squalane wax…and many of their friends.

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ozgirl said:

This might be useful.

https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-labeling/cosmetic-ingredient-names

That label would not be correct because it doesn’t specify if it is an oil or an extract etc.

e.g. Jojoba should probably be listed as Jojoba Oil or Jojoba (Simmondsia Chinensis) Oil.

Is Rosemary the essential oil or the oleoresin or an extract.

Hehe….that label….so many issues…poor example.

I did view all links you both sent, prior…. I just could not get an explanation of ‘common name’.  With my background….common name…is always the Latin name.  But my background is not cosmetics.  

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I guess I am still confused… as a plant breeder… the “common or usual names” of plants…are all in Latin (to me).

Depending on the audience the FDA is addressing….”common or usual names” might very well be Latin?

So…I grabbed a INCI off of Amazon…some Paula’s Choice something….Look at the blue….that is how I would label something….If this is NOT required…why are they doing it???

@jemolian and @ozgirl

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So, I guess it boils down to …. If the FDA is addressing the scientific community…than common name would mean…the latin name, as that is what that community would commonly use.

If the FDA is addressing the ‘lets make cosmetics in our kitchen’ crowd…then common name would mean….street language.

What do they mean, with ‘common name’?

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Based on their understanding….this is a viable INCI…. Common names.

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Anca_Formulator said:

I can only find Caprylyl Glycol in bulk, but I did find a smaller size Caprylyl Glycol EHG (includes 27-33% ethylhexylglycerin). 

Since Euxyl PE9010 already contains EHG, what percentage should I include it at to replace it in this preservative system

1% PE9010 + 0.35% Sodium Benzoate +2% Pentylene Glycol + 0.2% Phytic acid + 0.3% Caprylyl glycol?

I was thinking 0.45%? That would replace the 0.3% and add an additional 0.14%  EHG (roughly) to the formula. Does that work?

Thank you
 

You can use the source I use for CG:

Hexanediol CG | MakingCosmetics

Granted it come with some hexanediol, but I don’t think anyone will complain about that (just one more good booster).    I use that at .5% as part of a larger hurdle system,…which should give you about .25% of each.