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coco said:

Btw, what is mfg?

mfg = manufacturer

In this case: Lucas Meyer Cosmetics.

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The group will want to know what Heliosoft is:

INCI: Behenyl Alcohol (and) Glyceryl Behenate (and) Lecithin

Which in a nutshell….is not much.   

Change to a more robust emulsifier…or you going to need to bolster this one quite a bit.

Here are some tips from the mfg:

 Ingredients known to destabilize cell membranes could also impact the
stability of lamellar networks (ethoxylated ingredients or preservative boosters
with surfactant properties for example)
• Use of a gelling/suspending agent is recommended for emulsion stability
• In case of oxidation of formula, addition of chelating agent and/or
antioxidant is recommended
• Stability of the emulsion reinforced with addition of gelling/suspending
agent, thickeners, co-emulsifiers
• Viscosity can be increased with addition of gelling/suspending agent,
thickeners, increase of oil phase quantity
• Introduction of preservatives and electrolytes: addition recommended at the
end of cooling (lamellar network more robust); may require reinforcement of
the formula via the gelling system or a co-emulsifier such as Glyceryl Stearate
Citrate
• Use of synthetic gelling agents: to be used at a low percentage in
combination with a natural gum (better compatibility with pre-neutralized
gelling agents) 

• Lactobacillus Ferment (preservative): destabilization of the emulsion and
inefficient preservation
• Bentonite: destabilization of the emulsion
• Silica: destabilization of the emulsion

Some of the recommended co’s from mfg:  Co-emulsifiers • Polyglycerol esters
• Sucro-esters
• Glucosides…

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TEC is in and of itself…a stunning solvent.  Just add to your oil phase.

Function of urea is very pH dependent.  I did not see where you listed pH?  …. And even form will have some bearing….ie: HydroVance works in a little different range than the others.

Do you have a cool-down phase?  I add my bisabolol and Hydrovance at that time.

** When you see TEC as an ingredient in an ingredient….it is usually serving as a solvent/stabilizer for the ingredient in that situation.  There will likely not be enough to cover the whole formula.

@Pharma

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Pharma

I’m missing at least two ingredients I’d expect to be present in such a product: Love and Ouija board tea .

Yes…. Usually, these types of products are emulsified with ‘LOVE’.   (Needless to say…don’t buy it!)

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Squinny said:

FormulasNZ said:

Hi there, this is a very common problem, however there is a trend for second tier suppliers to start adding specialist ingredients.like ceramides etc….as MOQs become.more and more an issue.  Full disclosure -To this end I started a side business.with my wife called The Sourcery….www.thesourcery.co.nz
There are bound to be others also, as this is a global issue re MOQs and logistics.

Hi had a look at your website. Are the prices NZD? Also do you ship to Australia - I only buy small amounts so I’m talking 5 kg max for a parcel. If so how much is shipping or is all on website? I dont need anything right now but would consider for future purchases if you have products I need and cant source here if you ship to Australia. FYI I found that the place in Thailand Myskinrecipes were very good with good prices shipped to Oz (and very efficient service by airfreight with DHL) especially in comparison to Trulux Australia which are very expensive and not worth it IMO. 
Cheers

May I ask…. How long it took to get your order from MySkin…. after placing the order?  I have not yet ordered…. but plan to someday.

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Ditto…cut HMW HA by 33%
cut panthenol by 66%

Is it really in need of a humectant (glycerin) ?   

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Rockstargirl said:

 She’s  presented me with a very “musky/woody” essential oil combo for fragrance. Obviously our definition of “fresh” was different. I’d like to convince her to use a synthetic blend for fragrance to reduce irritation. Any tips on and pros/cons I can present her? Or just go with the EO?

I had an idea today….as I was doing my daily hour of weed eating…. Present her the GCMS of the EO’s she wants to introduce…NO CONTEXT… just the list of ingredients….and say….hey I was thinking about adding these 200 chemicals….what do you think?  

Hehehe…after she is done swearing at you….disclose that is the EO’s she wanted to add.

Note:  You can tell I do NOT work in this capacity.   

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Squinny said:

What’s a “Daddy Blogger” called ? A “Bloke Blogger” perhaps??

Squinny said:

What’s a “Daddy Blogger” called ? A “Bloke Blogger” perhaps??

I think only in UK and Australia.  

In Hawaiian…maybe Kane mea kākau?

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…. I have found the people that are so fond of the EO’s….don’t do a lot of the right kind of research… Most have never seen a GCMS… Once they pick their jaw up off the floor….they are much more open to listening.    

***  Oh they pride themselves in thinking they did research…as they have read volumes of ‘lore’….just nothing scientific. 

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Here is what I do with the mommy bloggers….and it works every time.

Show them a GCMS of an essential oil.  Tell them the average EO contains 150 different chemicals…..that usually gets it done.

GC_ChamomileGermanEssentialOil(Bulgaria).pdf (newdirectionsaromatics.com)

If not…. then explain how FO’s are made…. things like…they typically have less than 150 ingredients… Potent allergens and toxins are generally left out…. which cannot be said for EO’s.

If that doesn’t work….you can get into plant defense mechanisms…. where plants produce toxins/poisons/allergens/irritants for their very survival of the species.  The EO distillation process does not discriminate, so you are often getting a concentrated level of these defense mechanisms.  Remind them….most of the great poisons of the world…are plant derived.

EO’s would not be smothered in dermal limits….if there wasn’t a VERY GOOD reason.

With the advent of ‘natural’ FO’s…you can really get something nice….with about 1/3 the ingredient count.

I also found a company the other day will looking for DMAE….they have some fragrances…that have 4-6 ingredients.  (And they LIST those ingredients.)

Exotic Floral Synatra Fragrance Oil | BioFuran Materials (biofuranchem.com)

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I have never heard of Aristo AVC being SO electrolyte intolerant that it could not handle .1 or .2% EDTA.  There are many formulas with that combo.  (Granted I use GLDA….so maybe I don’t know.)

The intolerance is immediately visible…. Simply mix the formula measurements of EDTA, H2O and Aristoflex….if it gels….they are fine.

Aloha.

My fav chelator…. GLDA.  (Not inferring it is better than King EDTA.)

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While on the topic…is someone knows any of these approximate factoids…I’d love to hear the information.

What is the failure rate (PET) of professional formulas?

What is the failure rate (PET) of semi-professional formulators?

What is the failure rate (PET) of home-crafters?

I guess will toss in the twist…where they are trying to meet green expectations.  

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jeremien said:

 in vitro studies on col 1, 3 and elastin, this study has been repeated many times and the effect appears to be reproducible in 2D cell culture model and 3D skin looking to gene expression and protein quantificaation, and the corresponding anti-wrinkle effect observed in clinical studies.

Can you link these to me… I would like to read them.

Aloha.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

Best to add it post-emulsification:

(1)  HMW HA can interfere with the formation of the emulsion, particularly with liquid crystal emulsifiers

It is my understanding…that possibly these formations take up to 48 hours to form (could sure be wrong about this).  So, if I am adding this….say 30 minutes post emulsion…am I really gaining anything?

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Dazed said:

 I think Phenoxyethanol is out.

Well…then you really don’t have a primary preservative….just a couple supporting legs!  Always make a safe product first….and worry about the loonies later.  Your lawyer and insurance will thank you.

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Dazed said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Dazed:

PE9010 + Sodium Benzoate + Pentylene Glycol + pH < 5.5 should do the trick for you. 

Thank you, do you think it could pass without the Pentylene Glycol? I’m trying to limit to 3 preservatives if possible. What would you recommend is a good starting point on the percentages? End use is in a 8oz pump so it could be used all over the body.

Pentylene Glycol is a potentiator, not really a preservative in most circles.  It would be the LAST thing I would remove from any formula…. Have you ever felt what this miracle juice does to a formula…? Ever heard of …. making water feel wetter?  BINGO…welcome to the world of Pentylene glycol….takes a product from Ho Hum….to OMG!  (Enhances the humectant properties as well.)

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

Best to add it post-emulsification:

(1)  HMW HA can interfere with the formation of the emulsion, particularly with liquid crystal emulsifiers

(2)  Homogenization shreads the HA, so you no longer have HMW HA if you add it pre-emulsification, pre-homogenization

Thank You Mark….and I do use a pretty good shredder!   

That makes sense, and I also use some LC emulsifiers.

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About ANY of the perfume supply companies will have this.  It has so many dang synonyms…..that you have to be careful how you search for it….or it can easily be missed.

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Fermented grape extract….nice ring to it.  Guess you cannot advertise a Sulfite free formula.   

I always found a little alcohol…makes a nice addition… a little like adding D5.

Guessing you might have some of the same concerns as adding something like green tea, and phenols, so you might need to take some additional actions beyond the sulfites already included.  But not my area of expertise.  Maybe @Pharma will chime back in.

Aloha.

 

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natiyo123 said:

can anyone tell me where I can get small quantities of phenethyl alcohol like 1-3 Liters, for hobby purposes?? in the USA or Mexico

Perfumers Apprentice - Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol 

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Anca_Formulator said:

@jemolian: thank you!! The lanolin replacement suggestion really helped. I can’t find it from my suppliers, but maybe orange peel wax would work too. 

I read that isononyl is rich and creamy, though I’ve never seen it. Is coco caprylate/caprate also rich and creamy? I thought it was light/medium. 

I assume you are in the US….and I’m gonna pull a Perry on you… Just buy Isoamyl laurate from FSS….and you won’t be able to tell a difference in formula with all the other options.

You can also buy the pomegranate sterols there as well….very similar to Vaseline.  I also use the K-20W Floratech Jojoba esters as part of a natural barrier function…and the previously discussed squalane wax from Jedwards.

Toss is a few ester type waxes of MM and Cetyl Palmitate…and you are well on your way.  Finish with a spritz of dimethicone, and a splash of cyclomethicone….and you’ve got something.  (And since definition of ‘natural’ is fluid….have fun passing them off as natural.    )

Good Luck.

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The pH of skin…varies with different areas of the body… Your arm, armpit, face, legs, groin…all have different skin pH’s.

That being said…the area directly around your eye, is higher than most.  Hence adjust accordingly.

I assume you are not putting this IN your eye.  

I typically formulate at 4.6 to 4.8….but not with the eye cream.  

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Might help if you put the link in.

Many of the Chinese product will be sold under 20 different names…so if someone can actually see it….they can say….Oh…I had that one (under one of the 19 other names)… and it was _______!   

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@Gordof and @Pharma might be able to see the same mountains as you, when they look out their respective windows (and may be able to help).

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Speaking of things missing…how about the weak preservative…the Honeysuckle?  I have wanted to ask the good Dr @PhilGeis …. I have always wondered if this was just the second act of GSE?  It contains para-hydroxy benzoic acid, so they can probably get by with spiking it with parabens?  Any insight on this preservative ruse?  (Don’t worry…no plans on switching to it…just always curious.)