[Graillotion]

Typically, the first question I ask when selecting an emulsifier is…………… What is the products final pH and is that emulsifier comfortable at that pH.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

Take a read on this old thread.

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

I have even heard (cannot confirm…as I automatically put dimethicone in everything), that using Triethyl citrate as part of your emollient package…will even help with this issue, all the while, enhancing the product.

chemistscorner.com

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation…

[Graillotion]

Assume you are talking about ‘soaping’. If so… dimethicone will typically fix that concern in a snap.

Soaping has multiple sources….and there are many potential fixes/helpers. But dimethicone is typically the best.

Make sure you are not using too much emulsifier, as this is one of the root causes. I’ll try and find an old thread on the topic for you to read. Had you used the search bar…you would have found numerous conversations of the topic. 😉

[Graillotion]

Shear is very emulsion dependent.

I only do lab-scale….so I shear for 2 minutes at elevated temps, before lamellar structures are formed.

I stir the entire time until pouring below 35 C.

Some emulsifiers greatly benefit from one last kiss of shear below 40C. I know PCP is one that likes a late kiss of shear.

So, question is essentially impossible to answer…without more details.

[Graillotion]

Umh…..every single cosmetic has the formula listed on the packaging. (LOI)

What are you asking? 😂

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Move on…. (spoiler alert) best marketer wins in the end anyway.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Likely the Mg Chloride. Delete it…it is a placebo ingredient anyway. If you need it for claim, include it at .01%

If that doesn’t fix it…do a knockout starting with the bottom one…followed by the aloe.

Even HA is a well-known irritant if the dalton size is small enough.

You did not list rates…which is certainly not helpful at all. Even Niacinamide becomes an irritant at some point.

Also list pH if you want educated responses vs guesses.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Hmmmn… You sure you weren’t mixing up PPM with Percentage? The other one is 99% filler…so it can probably be used at higher rates. ????

• This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

And thirdly…. I’m not sure why you would consider it an emulsifier, even if it was included.

Overall …. looks like something a beginner tossed together to try and ring as many ‘claim’ bells as possible. A plethora of irritants and allergens. Look for something efficacious to model!

Appears to be one of those brands…. that only list…. what they think you want to see. 🙁

• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

I mean …. they even threw a hormone in for good measure…. what the heck?

[Graillotion]

I have sensitive skin… Mag or BS would likely send me to the ER.

TEC is NOT low pH…it has NO pH.

TEC is used IN a low pH system. These systems are MUCH MORE difficult to make well….hence the indie brands have dropped back to beginner level concepts without regard to the users skin.

If you simply drop high pH items and sub in TEC….you will be sorely disappointed. It is a tiny piece to a big puzzle.

If you think the Indie brands have the best and brightest and most experienced cosmetic chemists on the payroll….maybe think again.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

The mag used it deo…is traditionally a higher pH than the BS used. Scratch your head for a minute…its allowed. So why is BS exponentially more irritating than the mag? Solubility. BS creates a very rapid….for lack of a better term…. explosion of high pH. Mag has poor solubility in water (water is introduced by skin and sweat). Hence, for lack of a better term…. it is more like a ‘timed release’ elevation and maintenance of high pH. See the difference?

If you look at where microbes (the source of odor) thrive….in general, the range is 5-8 (of course there are outliers). Hence it is easiest to make a deo….either above or below that range. That is why you see the two systems on the market.

When we use soap on our skin….it is high pH. Hence we ‘wash it off’ after use. So, leaving something in place, that is high pH…is profoundly different….than using soap.

[Graillotion]

As mentioned,…it is below the 1% line. I suspect it came along for the ride with another ingredient…and was not directly added as an ingredient. Might even have come with the aloe….but there are other possibilities as well.

[Graillotion]

Search the contents of your skin’s NMF (Natural Moisturizing Factor). This is what YOUR SKIN MAKES…to keep itself moisturized. The list you search should come back something like this:

1) Free amino acid ≈ 40%

2) Various ions (chloride, sodium, calcium) ≈ 18.5%

3) PCA ≈ 12%

4) Lactic Acid/Lactates ≈ 12%

5) Sugars, Inorganic acid, peptides ≈ 8.5%

6) Urea ≈ 7%

7) Ammonia, Uric acid, glucosamines, creatinine ≈ 1.5%

8 ) Citrate ≈ .5%

Look at line #4. Ingredients off this list….are generally well tolerated by skin….as they are things it naturally makes. Hence…I would throw my hat in the ring with adjusting pH with lactic acid.

• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

First I would remove the word ‘cosmetic’. That is one of the lower standards in industry. I would elevate to ‘food grade’ if I were going to ingest it.

A number of us take supplements that we hope for a positive outcome on our exteriors. The brilliant George Deckner once wrote a piece on this….let me get you the link.

I take: lutein & zeaxanthin and astaxanthin and Hyaluronic acid with collagen orally every day, with my skin in mind.

Oral Skin Care, Inner Outer Beauty - Prospector Knowledge Center

ulprospector.com

Just a moment...

Just a moment...

[Graillotion]

Next thing I would knock out….would be the ….’rich in Sulfur’ Irish moss. 🤣

• This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Agreed. As you used the term ‘rancid’, a term that in cosmetics typically gets applied to oils…. this makes sense. Most people starting out buy just hideous grade oils. Once an oil is deemed unusable by the industry due to degradation….it is NOT thrown away…but sold to the repackers. Many of my peeps have told me that they receive rancid oils from the repackers….the day it arrives.

If you are not using something like ICSC out of Denmark…then your lipids will always be ‘suspect’ unless you are testing them.

As with any cosmetic….. do a ‘knock-out’ test. Make a small batch …. each time removing one of the listed ingredients….and bingo…. pretty soon you will know what is causing it. 😉 If not one of the lipids…. then keep working through the list…with the most plausible candidates first.

[Graillotion]

Thank you…that is the impetus I needed to pull the trigger.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Thank you. I will have to debate that. Not the concept….but the fact that I can never purchase the Evonik MOQ’s… but I can buy the Lubrizol pairing small MOQ at the Thai place.

[Graillotion]

Thank you.

Question…. Lubrizol’s Methyl Glucose Sesquistearate has an HLB of 6.6. Evonik makes a version that has an HLB of around 12.

Does the Evonik and Lubrizol version match up (make a good pairing)…as they do not have the HLB spread that the two Lubrizols would have. I suspect no….but maybe I am not seeing the big picture?

Aloha

(It happens that I found that I have a sample of the Evonik version, Tego Care PS … after an additional search.)

• This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

‘J’ is right of course on the charge…. as well, the higher MW HA’s are disruptive to emulsion formation, so timing is key. Your addition of your pre-hydrated mix of HA should be added post emulsification.

Always memba…. HA is typically a claim ingredient… so use less of it (way less)…. and then you won’t even notice the damage it is doing to the formula. Granted this is not a hair product….but this gives you an inside look at how HA is used in industry:

Best selling eye cream on Amazon….to which I even included the full formula. (You are welcome.) Sells 50,000 units a month. Take careful note of the vast amounts of HA they use.

• This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

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[Graillotion]

Most doctors do not study this type of medicine….most of them learn to cut it out…and drug it out. If I come across a ‘Dr recommended’ cosmetic in my FB feed…it is likely with worst product on the market, and often times they attempt to preserve it with spoiled Korean food, which demonstrates they have no acumen in the field.

Where the error lies… just like in mommy blogger deodorant (find one that doesn’t have utterly gross coconut in it) is that they don’t distinguish between free lauric acid, and lauric acid bound in a triglyceride. Guess what…. makes a difference. Just like stearic acid in a butter, which is bound in a triglyceride….does NOT perform the same as free stearic acid. ????

[Graillotion]

TEC and pH are just parts of a big puzzle. Hence, in and of themselves…you won’t achieve a product with more than a few hours of efficacy (akin to splashing lemon juice, vinegar etc…on your pits in the shower). (Your skin is trying to alter the pH, from the moment you apply.) You need antimicrobials. You have mentioned some. They will be the backbone of the project.

It is very difficult to make an anhydrous, low pH product. How are you as a laymen…gonna measure pH??? The pH can only be measured on the skin in that format…..after it combines with sweat and skin moisture. Lume has both a hydrous and anhydrous package….I suspect the anhydrous option took up 96% of their development time. How to take an acid in a dry format…and make it come out to just the right target pH….when applied to skin! Think about it.

If you don’t have extensive knowledge in the field, I’d probably stick with the very simplistic magnesium version. Essentially all Indie brands lack the knowledge, therefore flood that approach.

• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

From someone that spent a couple of years working on a project in this space…. I have a hunch the LOI might be a little light. ????

Pretty fascinating what you can come up with under the ‘fragrance’ banner. ????

Or there is always the ‘Indie’ brand Modus operandi …. just leave some things off. If you start as an Indie brand…sometimes that baggage sticks around…as you advance.

[Graillotion]

Cute that you called the ‘blogger’ a scientist. ???? If they actually were….then they would have known the reason!

Baking soda does only one thing. It raises pH. The irritation…is essentially a pH burn.

• This reply was modified 4 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Depending on your start point… you might be surprised to find that sodium lactate will often raise pH. It is what I use as part of my pH up system, when formulating with salicylic acid.