[ggpetrov]

mikeylamar said:

And how wouldnt cyclomethicone evaporate during the heat and hold phase?

You can smell it. The Cyclomethicone has a certain smell, which is pleasant for me. Usually I add it at 45-50 degrees, but I double the amount because of evaporation. Also I am homogenizing it in the emulsion for a few seconds.

[ggpetrov]

It is a mixture of Cetyl palmitate, Sorbitan stearate and Sorbitan palmitate. No, it’s not an emulsifier, but a consistency enhancer and a liquid cristal promoter. Actually it can be coupled with Olivem at 2-3% as a replacement of the fatty alcohols, and gives light and very pleasant textures with softening effect. Recently I am using it together with Olivem 1000 and I am in love with the results. Also you can reduce the fat phase drastically, because both the Olivem and Oliwax play role as an emollients too.

[ggpetrov]

Squinny said:

Maybe try smaller batches than 2000 g and see what works best for what you want. I usually only make a batch of 250 g at most for when I’m testing if I like a product for myself. I have found I actually like a body cream better and find them longer lasting and include some butters with the oils like mango butter.
 Also for more slip perhaps add 1 % dimethicone. I make a nice cream for myself with Water phase 77% incl 8% glycerin and use  oil blend of macadamia and MCT along with mango and cocoa butter. For the emulsifier I use Olivem1000 at 5% and use Cetearyl Alc at 2.15% rather than Cetyl (makes for a thinner product for my formula). Also you can add the Niaciniamde in your cooldown stage (apparently you shouldnt use at temps above 70 degrees c. I find it dissloves easy at cooldown.
Or look at the ingredients that Aveeno use and try emulate. Glycerin is 2nd on their list of ingredients so maybe they use at higher % than your 5%. I find I can go to 10% depending on the formulation and doesnt leave my skin greasy. Hope that helps (or maybe makes you more confused!). Cheers

You should try Oliwax LC instead of cetyl / cetearyl alcohol. It doesn’t ticken the emulsion like them, but the haptics is gorgeous

[ggpetrov]

Majman said:

I’ve googled examples of names of low HLB emulsifier for water to oil formulation but it keeps bringing me essays and stuff. I need to buy a low HLB emulsifier to blend a little water phase into an oil phase and can’t seem to find any examples of ones I can but, please help 

What about the Glyceryl monosterate?

[ggpetrov]

ngarayeva001 said:

Guys, I really wanted to make it a post but it won’t be appropriate I guess. I found a supplier in Thailand. They sell ingredients that are impossible to find anywhere else at DIY amounts. I already ordered from them and they delivered to London for £36 (took only 6 days). They provide all documentation and the packaging is not bad (DIY suppliers are often horrible with packaging). I am not affiliated with them in any shape or form but I always struggle with finding synthetic ingredients (I know they all are synthetic, I am referring to PEGs, Silicones and other “free-from” ingredients) and I tried them, so they are reliable.

https://myskinrecipes.com/ 

I know cheesy name. They don’t have MOQ, accept Paypal and deliver quickly. They have PEG-10 Dimethicone and other W/Si emulsifiers, Esters that I couldn’t find anywhere else, Hydrocarbons and silicones that I haven’t seen anywhere else (stearyl dimethicone). They have pure amodimethicone (not an emulsion but an oil-soluble). They have Isoxehadecane and even oil soluble dyes. Enjoy!

The site seems very interesting! I’ve made a test purchase and I asked for a quotation. The prize was brutal, It was about 65 Euro fоr shipping to Bulgaria.

[ggpetrov]

Sorry, I wasn’t aware with this details. I guess the Arachidyl glucoside is similar to the Cetearyl glucoside, which can be used as a stand alone emulsifier and it is selling by the name of Tego Care CG90. I used to use it for a while, but anyway I didn’t like it. Actually from what I’ve read in the Tego Care CG90 broshure - the fatty alcohols are the actual lamellar net promoters. “Depending on the formulation, 0.1 - 0.3% of TEGO® Carbomer 134 and 3 - 5% of consistency promoting substances are needed for the formation of viscosity-increasing gel structures in the external water phase. Combinations of TEGIN ® 4100 Pellets(Glyceryl Stearate), Stearic acid, TEGO ® Alkanol 16
(Cetyl Alcohol), TEGO ® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol) or TEGO ® Alkanol 1618 (Cetearyl Alcohol) have proved most effective.”
And yes, the cetearyl glucoside should be added to the heated water phase. Maybe that’s relevant for the Montanov 202 as well.

[ggpetrov]

I am not sure if this workflow works for these emulsifiers! That’s the workflow you can go when you work with the Olivem or Polyaquol, and that’s because they can act as the only emollients in those cream gels. In my experience these cream gels are very light and super fast absorbing, but they are more expensive too, because you should increase the amount of the emulsifier. 

[ggpetrov]

Dtdang said:

@ggpetrov! Thank you so much!
How do you cool down the emulsion slowly? 

I don’t have any problems to dissolve 1% Allantoin, but I heat the water phase to 85-90 degrees. After the homogenization, I stir the emulsion with a paddle mixer and I take care to control the temperature to not drop down too fast. For example if the room when you make the emulsions is too cold, or some people force the cool down by cooling the beaker with cold water.

[ggpetrov]

Dtdang said:

@ggpetrov, Would you please show me how to soluble 1% allantoin into water?
I  have difficulty to soluble 0.5% allantoin into water. I have to warm up the water little bit to soluble 0.5% allantoin. But, later solid allantoin appeared when the temperature going down.
Thanks in advance.

Heat the water to 85 - 90 degrees, so it will completely dissolved. For preventing recrystalization you should cool down the emulsion slowly. If you cool the emulsion fast, a crystals may appear.

[ggpetrov]

Perry said:

@ggpetrov - you could prove it scientifically.  Just make a batch with the extra Allantoin and a batch without the extra. Then test it (on a blinded basis) to see if you can tell a difference.  It would work best if you had 3 samples. 2 of 1 type and 1 of the other type.  Then see if you can pick out the odd sample.

Perry I already did it! My statement isn’t just a claim, but it comes from my experience. Anyway, it doesn’t counts as the clinical researches do, but it’s valuable for me and my clients. Also I have a great impression from the Calendula extract as well as the a-Bisabolol, but it’s based only on my oun experiments.

[ggpetrov]

I think it’s preservative that causes these effects.

[ggpetrov]

Recently I’ve jumped from 0.5% to 1% Allantoin in my lotions, and have to say that I noticed a very positive change. Of coarse I can’t prove it scientifically, but me and my clients have noticed a very strong soothing effect. I’ve tested it in an aftersun lotion, and it very quickly removed the redness. Also I am heating the water phase to 85 degrees and I don’t have any issues with the solubilizing, respectively I haven’t noticed recristalization. 

[ggpetrov]

ProfessorHerb said:

Optiphen has an incredibly nice skin feel but it destabilizes emulsions too easily. In one lotion recipe I have to wait the next day until the batch of lotion is completely cooled down and then its too solid to put into bottles. Is there another eco preservative that would work well with lotions?

You can use Euxyl PE 9010 instead of Optiphen. The Optiphen can cause viscosity issues because of the Caprylyl glycol in it. Ofcoarse it depends of the emulsifier system you use. Some can be affected, some can’t. If you post your formula here, we can tell you in more details  about what is happening.

[ggpetrov]

Don’t take it personally! By inadequate I meant that your fat phase doesn’t look very optimized. Cetyl palmitate is a great waxy ester, and I use it a lot, but it is quite occlusive. I think 3% is a way too much. I’d rather use it beyond 1%. MM is also great, but I found it a bit shiny on the face. Also it can hold the absorbtion of the emulsion if it’s used above certain concentration. I think you can play with certain esters, which can give a really nice haptics. I don’t use Soduim phytate, but I use Disodium EDTA in the hot water phase. I found that the Tetrasodium EDTA can induce some viscosity issues, so I don’t use it anymore.

About the Montanov 202. I have used it in the past for a while. I have used it in the presence of Sodium PCA and Sodium Lactate, but I haven’t had a stability issues. It’s expensive, I don’t think it has matifiyng properties, also it is temperature sensitive. So, I didn’t like it and I don’t use it anymore. Seppic recomends to combine it with the Montanov 82, not 68.

In your emulsion you have a lot of “bug food” - the hydrozole, the extracts, also the sugars. So your choice of a preservative isn’t adequate. As it was mentioned above, you should use more strong preservative system, and I don’t think that the lack of the chelating agent is your big problem.

This “natural” preservative blends are quite unpredictable, I had a lot of viscosity issues with them, so I don’t recommend you to use them. Also if the viscosity drops, that means that your emulsifier don’t work anymore, and you can’t save the emulsion by increasing the gum, or waxes. You should change the approach.

[ggpetrov]

According to my understandings, the under eye cream should be something light and mostly fluid. Looking at your formula it looks quite heavy. I think you have too much waxy esters, also too much emulsifiers. In general your fat phase looks quite inadequate. I don’t see any basic humectants in your formula, such as Glycerine or Propylene Glycol.

I haven’t used these emulsifiers, but I have used Simulgreen 18-20 which was similar, and I didn’t like it at all. You can make a fantastic under eye cream by using more simple and basic emulsifiers such as Glyceryl Stearate Citrate, Glyceryl Stearate SE and many more.

Regarding your preservation system, I think it’s quite problematic. First it is not sufficient to protect your product, and second this combination very often leads to viscosity issues. Also it requires a certain Ph to work properly.

[ggpetrov]

The Caprylyl Glycol which is a part of Optiphen, tends to destabilize the emulsions. It broke a lot of my emulsions in the past, so I don’t use it anymore.

[ggpetrov]

ngarayeva001 said:

Personal experience here. I compared behenyl OH, cetyl OH, MM and cetyl palmitate in the same base. The last two are water thin at 2%. Behenyl is more viscous than cetyl (probably due to higher melting point)

Have you tried them in combination? Recently I am using Tego MM in a combination with Cetearyl alcohol, and I notice that the consistency is improved in a way to be more thick, but without the waxy feeling of the Cetearyl - especially when it’s used in bigger amount.

[ggpetrov]

@Pharma
What about Gluconolactone? I have heard that it could prevent the Urea from the decomposing.

[ggpetrov]

Hello. You can go with 0.5% Allantoin. It’s one of those ingredients which works best at smaller concentrations. You should put it in the hot water phase, otherwise it will not dissolve completely. Me personally heat the Allantoin at the 80-85 degrees, and I don’t think it degrades because of that.

I am not sure about the Niacinamide. It’s a tricky ingredient, because it’s a Ph sensitive. Generally it requires a lower Ph. Also if you wish to make your lotion more moisturizing, you can add some glycols or salts, like Sodium lactate or Sodium PCA. I think you fat doesn’t look very nice.

[ggpetrov]

Hi, I am not quite familiar with this type of products, but I am using two hair oils from Pantene and LOreal, so as far as I know they contain mainly volatile silicones. Dimethicone 1000 is quite thick and should be upleasant in this type of formulations.

[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

ggpetrov said:

Isn’t the Allantoin anionic? Maybe I am wrong but you can’t use it in combination with strong cationic compounds.

No it is not anionic.

Really?

[ggpetrov]

Isn’t the Allantoin anionic? Maybe I am wrong but you can’t use it in combination with strong cationic compounds.

[ggpetrov]

Stuartander2021 said:

Hi all
I’m new to this, so please excuse the silly questions.
I’m making a nice thick hand cream. I have made it and it’s perfect,  but I have used Cetearyl Olivate and Sorbitan Olivate- and the packet says its DESIGNED to be used between 1-4%, but I have used 10% in my formulation. Does this matter? If so, what can I swap out 6% with, but still achieve the texture and feel I have with using 10%.

Thanks
Stuart 

Without knowing your formula, it’s hard to say something specific. Generally you can use about 3% Olivem in combination with other fatty alcohols or esters. For example you can add 2-3% depending of your formula Cetearyl alcohol, or Glyceryl monostearate. Also you can combine the fatty alcohols with the Cetyl palmitate - which will make your formula more oclusive and it softens the skin almost like the cationic emulsifiers do. You can use Olivem at 5-10% if you make cream gels. Then the Olivem acts as an emolient, so you can lower the fat phase drastically. In this case you should put the Olivem in to the water phase.

[ggpetrov]

You can’t use synthetic polymers together with electrolytes (sepimax Zen). The sodium lactate will broke the polymeric net of Zen. In this case, you should use only natural gums.

[ggpetrov]

It depends, but in most cases - 100-200ml. The trick is to put the head of the blender below the surface of the emulsion.