[EVchem]

What’s the pH of your final product? 

[EVchem]

If you aren’t going to solubilize it in something else first, then the best way to find out would be:
 choose an incorporation method (say overhead mixer)- try taking your base in using the mixer alone first. Does it move easily? Will leaving it on there interfere with the desired viscosity of the product?
Mix until you believe it has uniform appearance
Then sample from some different areas of the batch and send out for potency testing.

[EVchem]

SunSkin said:

….claim your product is a cosmetic …

These are the key words I think. The US cosmetic  definition is governed  by  claiming to only alter (by cleaning or ‘beautifying’ for example) the appearance of skin/ hair/ what have you.  Plenty of cosmetics include OTC ingredients but only claim them to be for improving appearance. Technically the FDA has some semantics  that say if the potential ‘drug’ has a well known use to treat a condition they can still hit the manufacturer with a misbranding warning but in my limited experience I haven’t seen that happen. 

take a look at the  marketing terms of the companies you mentioned:

Paulas Choice : ….visibly reduces fine lines and wrinkles ….. younger-looking skin

Now the Ordinary plays it a little more on the edge I think.  For that particular product they say
…help fight visible blemishes and for improved skin radiance….

notice how they explicitly mention appearance or use nonsense terms (are they actually quantifying how much skin is radiating?)

Not an expert on regulations but I think they are very interesting

[EVchem]

Our rep for Colonial used to be Gulf Coast Chemical but is now Harcros, didn’t realize this was a widespread change.  

[EVchem]

We use pantone colors as a general reference but the company I work for is skincare-based not color cosmetics. I think you would need to account for lighting and opacity  of the samples as well. 

[EVchem]

We’ve only ever gotten it from Colonial Chem. I suppose Vantage may have an offset, or some kind of weird distribution deal depending on your region

[EVchem]

@mattd9159 the best test is the test of time… at a couple different conditions  of course.  Usually in our lab we run a sample at room temp , 45C, maybe 50C, and a freezer sample to repeatedly stress.  CBD is super sensitive to light so a condition exposed to UV might also be a good point of study, though hopefully your final packaging will be opaque.

[EVchem]

@Gunther no FA here it’s aqueous  so really mostly HA powder, humectants, niacinamide. I ended up switching to PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil as a solubilizer and it’s doing much better, but there is still  a very slight soaping (at least that’s what I think it is as it shows up only after some excessive rubbing) 

[EVchem]

Yeah reverse engineering is doable provided you give the time/money/resources necessary to get as close as possible (or as close as you’re willing to pay for).  We get lots of clients who want reverse engineers  but they often settle for close alternatives because they balk at the process likely taking more than two weeks  and the cost of bringing in any new materials (so it goes in the world of CM)

[EVchem]

The time you spend trying to work out a way to use tap water and repairing failed emulsions may end up being more expensive than just buying  good starting material. Do you have any water quality reports that let you know the typical ‘contaminants’ of your tap water? Does it vary throughout the year?

[EVchem]

@ngarayeva001 hey that is useful, I was pretty sure it wouldn’t perform as well as dimethicone but i hoped it would  have at least a smaller scale effect. Good to know it’s not worth keeping in the formula.

@Gunther Yeah dimethicone would be perfect but then I have to emulsify even more material and I think that would also impede product clarity.   I imagine the PEG-12 dimethicone must be viewed as the antichrist by the scaremongers, it’s a perfect package of ingredients that they love to hate on.  I mean label-friendly as in not  commercial antifoaming blends really. 

I think the fact I’m using some xanthan gum to build viscosity is also contributing to the soaping. I’ll try to knock that out and see if it helps. Do either of you think polysorbate 20 would have less of an effect than Poly Suga Mulse? Client  isn’t picky about ingredients, I’m just trying to keep the client’s clients in mind (but maybe that is too far down the rabbit hole to concern myself with).

[EVchem]

@mattd9159 absolutely! most formulations have several emulsifiers. If you are a fan of the HLB school of thought then you try to choose emulsifiers that have slightly opposing properties that together can  balance out your specific ingredients. You can also always use ‘polymeric’ emulsifiers which as far as I understand are really holding phases apart physically rather than relying on chemical properties of hydrophobes and hydrophiles. If you need resources Perry’s site has some great material and other posts on this forum do as well

[EVchem]

You mean you are going to post-add it to a finished base? I’ve done that with small amounts of isolate already dissolved in MCT. I can’t speak to the stability of that though

[EVchem]

after I saw you both ( @essenceofllama  and @ngarayeva001 )  comment on it in another thread I also attempted to look for it. That ingredient is some kind of magical balm-only material, it’s also in the  farmacy green clean balm . I did find Nikkol which in my US location is distributed by KOBO but I only saw Peg-10 stearate not isostearate. 

That Ethox product is PEG-9, not sure how much difference it makes. My current guess is it’s got to be from china.

[EVchem]

pretty sure all standard forms of b vitamins are water- soluble anyway

[EVchem]

This isn’t enough information (for me at least) to get you help. Exactly how high of a pH? What kind of clarity do you need? What kind of product is this for ? there might be other ingredients that need to be considered for compatability

[EVchem]

what viscosity dimethicone are you using? If it’s thick that may be making the hair feel greasy or heavy.

Like others have mentioned, I’d bump up the BTMS and cut the oils down  (or out)

[EVchem]

There are products that are just fractions of shea butter and you might find they work better
https://aakpersonalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AAK-Productguide-Shea-Liquid.pdf

[EVchem]

You can always go down to 0.01%… I always feel a little bad putting in ingredients like this but functionally the less there is the better for the shampoo right?

[EVchem]

You  probably can, but I think the tetrasodium is supposed to be better for higher pH formulations (>7)

[EVchem]

@raiyana my guess is to handle some of the stickiness of the 5% polysorbate 80

[EVchem]

 Since you compared NaCl to NaOH and still got precipitation, that makes it sound to me like the sodium mandelate is being formed and is not as soluble as the mandelic acid is. Not all salts are very soluble in water

[EVchem]

“the FDA does not consider it misbranding for companies to label products as ‘natural,’ even if they contain toxins like coal tar, asbestos, and other harmful chemicals”

What are they even trying to say here?? Asbestos is natural but it shouldn’t be in cosmetics anyway since the FDA makes ingredient safety a prerequisite .

I thought they would speak more to the instances where people are labeling products ‘natural’ with ingredients like decyl glucoside or glyceryl stearate. when the  ‘natural’ starting material has been through some  chemical processing, where do they draw the line?

[EVchem]

Perry really covered it all! Yes in industry at a contract manufacturer we are constantly asked to ‘reverse engineer’ other brand’s products. It can be a very close match if you use techniques like loss on drying, compare physical characteristics, etc. Usually though people take a cheaper alternative

[EVchem]

Waleed636 said:

So i played with preservatives today
Added edta to water And added blend of Phenoxyethenol+Caprylyl glycol+Sorbic acid and added Dmdm and there was the Mold type substance on top of water

Then i tried pure phenoxyethenol edta and dmdm and there was no mold solution was clear
Considering Sorbic acid is recommended to pair with edta 
The culprit here seems to be Caprylyl glycol
Caprylyl glycol seems to be not compatible with edta

Do tell me what you guys think

So the sample you made without sorbic acid and didn’t have the issue…
 Where have you heard that sorbic acid is recommended to pair with EDTA?