ElaineB
Forum Replies Created
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Bob, I want to thank you for the offer you made in the interest of the Forum. While I’m only a bystander reading this thread, I just wanted to say that it really was above and beyond generous, and a wonderful gesture to make. I do hope all this is worked out in a just and speedy manner.
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I think part of the issue is that the skin is a very complicated organ. (Yes, medically speaking, it is considered an organ of the body, like the liver and heart.) It happens to be the only organ visible to the eye and we tend to view it as an static layer of impermeable matter that holds our innards inside and keeps the outside world outside. This leads to a very common worldview that anything you slop onto your skin is like a wood finish, or paint — purely cosmetic improvements that don’t affect the “real” structure of the body.
And I think that originally, the FDA regulations were created when this was the prevailing medical view as well. However, the past 20-30 years brought a lot of medical research that has revealed how phsyiological complex the skin actually is, as well as a lot of information about how to use the skin as an means of delivering pharmaceuticals to our innards. We’ve realized the skin isn’t some inert layer of tissue, but a dynamic organ with its own ecology so to speak. Dry skin isn’t like old, flaking wood in need of some varnish. Rather, it’s the symptom of a breakdown in the skin’s physiology, and to “moisturize” is to aid the healing of these systemic breakdowns.
So seen in this light, FDA concern may be considered justified, because they are trying to protect the consumer from unscrupulous or uninformed manufacturers who market products with ingredients that could harm their bodies -or- do not meet the claims that were made. On the other hand, one could question whether the FDA’s classification of a “drug” (i.e. a product that affects any structure of the human body) should be extended to the physiological functioning of our only external organ, the skin. It’s kind of a grey area. Is old, dry skin a sign of poor health? Or is it more of a cosmetic inconvenience? How about persistent excema? Dark circles under the eyes? Where do you draw the line?
So, I don’t see this so much as an issue of FDA protecting pharmaceutical companies so much as a clash of old and new worldviews.
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I don’t have professional formulating experience with this type of hair care product, so please take anything I say as tentative. However, I know that it’s a common practice in some circles to use epsom salts (i.e. magnesium sulfate) dissolved in water as a DIY curl-enhancing spray. (I have curly hair, which is how I heard about it.) That may be the basis for this product. In that case, the seaweed extracts are probably the only other “therapeutic” ingredients, as the rest look like fragrance chemicals, solubilizers, and preservatives. Citric acid could be used to bring the pH to an acceptable level for use in hair and for the preservation system.
As for using sea water, I have doubts that it would be practical, due to preservation issues. I do have to say that as a customer, I wouldn’t ever buy a leave-in hair care product that contained sea water. I have too many memories of coming home from a day at the beach, my hair caked in the gunk from dried sea water. Very unpleasant associations for me, no label appeal whatsoever.
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I have often wondered where the process of skin moisturization falls on the spectrum between cosmetic and drug claims. On first glance, it seems a simple cosmetic claim, since there are so many “moisturizing” lotions lining drugstore shelves. But when I dug deeper into the physiological process of moisturization, such as barrier repair, reduction of transepidermal water loss, restoration of lipids, etc — I could see someone making the case that an effective moisturizer affects the structure of the body and thus, could be considered more of a drug. Has there ever been a sign of FDA concern in this area?
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I’ve never had lanolin rub off my skin post application, and I’ve used it in high concentrations in some formulas. Sticky? Yes. Waxy? Not in my experience. But I don’t know what grade lanolin you’re working with. I always stayed as close to pharmaceutical grade as possible. It’s possible the lower grades still have a greater percentage of the waxes that are part of raw lanolin. If you wanted to test this, you can get a small tube of pharmaceutical grade lanolin at most drugstores. It’s marketed as Lanisoh, and is used by nursing mothers as a salve to protect their nipple areas.
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I apologize for coming off snarky. I’m not one of the chemists/experts on the board, only an interested reader, and I was admittedly grumpy yesterday for reasons that had nothing to do with you or this board. So, again, my apologies.
I can offer one answer to your second post — an emulsification system in your example product will have nothing to do with the concentration of salt in the formulation. Emulsification is an oil/water process by definition.
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You may first want to visit the thread on the best way to ask for technical help from the forum.
The chemists here are incredibly generous with their time and knowledge, but they’re not going to build a formula from scratch from you, especially one copied from an existing product. You have to do at least some homework beforehand.
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Thank you so much, Bob. Your explanation was a true “aha” moment for me. I always look forward to your insights in these discussions.
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Wouldn’t there also be difficulties in creating an accurate list of ingredients if you used an existing product without knowing its actual formulation?
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Ah, I wasn’t using it in facial products, so I can’t give you any numbers off the top of my head. I was doing some heavy-duty hand moisturizing creams. The Croda formulary might be a place to look, though.
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Just saw this as I was reading back threads. Croda is an excellent source of both lanolin and information about its uses. (I think they’re one of the oldest lanolin manufacturers in the world.) I sampled a few of their products some years ago, when I was still actively formulating, and I know the Pharmalan UPS and the one directly below it in the list, i.e. slighly less purified, were odorless, colorless, and absolutely lovely to work with. The smell and color of lanolin are entirely dependent on the amount of refining. The “sheepy” smell comes not from lanolin itself, but from the other ecretions that mix with the lanolin and make a very complex coating that protects the wool and the sheep’s skin.
