[Dr_Sara]

Ah, that is not what I thought! Not beeswax blooming.

That looks like “figging” from stearic acid. Does it look like small, branched threads?

[Dr_Sara]

Hi @mhart123,
I suspect it is your beeswax that is blooming (if you mean what I think- a dusty coating). Beeswax candles, wax fruit, beeswax sheet… will all bloom with time.

To remove the bloom from candles you can gently wipe it away- you really can’t do that! 

To prevent the beeswax bloom you can add microcrystalline wax. Perhaps you can add an organic wax and achieve the same result?

@Dr_Sara 

[Dr_Sara]

Hi @Tyss
I am in the EU.

Do you mind saying what your product is and what the ingredient/impurity is?
Thanks
@Dr_Sara

[Dr_Sara]

Hi @zetein. I think to convince scientists, we like to see studies that support our ideas even when something is as obvious as fragrance transfer from cosmetic to skin. 

zetein said:

But I also don’t believe a wash-off prouduct will have that penetration enhanceing effect that’s supposed to because of the high amount surfactant.

This is something that would have to be investigated. Many biological processes happen very quickly. I mentioned the Walters study because it is an interesting idea, not because I believe every additive will be able to permeate cells in this method. 

Perry said:

Change My View - If trying to deliver an ingredient to skin or hair, cleansers are not a good way to do that.  

@Perry, I appreciate your fact-based opinions. I would love to change your view. Perhaps I should send you a bar of soap? Many experiments begin with anecdotal observations and maybe that is where I am?

I think maybe my message got a bit muddled. I am not trying to deliver ingredients using soap, however, I do believe that there are some ingredients that are left behind. Glycerin for instance (if I had a lab I would look at soap-based glycerol’s ability to enter skin through aquaporins for example).

Soap with excess oil and glycerin may work more like a cleansing cream- removing dirt yet leaving a film behind. The oil in soap solubilizing the dirt and oil yet not completely stripping away all oils or the microbiome. 

Question about the hair industry for @Perry; Most shampoos on the market, even inexpensive ones, are not just detergents to clean hair. There are other ingredients added to leave hair in a “desirable condition”. Do you find these additives valuable to hair products? Do they decrease the cleaning ability? 

Finally, I appreciate that products like 2-in-1 shampoos may not be as efficient as using separate products (I actually do use both shampoo and conditioner!), but some people are lazy. I wonder how many cosmetic chemists have elaborate beauty routines? I rarely get beyond using a bar of soap (imagined screams of horror from the readers!). 

I seem to have crawled back up on the soapbox! 

[Dr_Sara]

Thank you or your reply @perry.

While I find it interesting that soap and other surfactants can act as penetration enhancers, this is not really my area of interest. I agree the exposure time is likely a very important factor and short exposure may not lead to delivery it would be interesting to investigate.  Some chemicals can elicit a reaction with very brief exposure. 

An important question might be “how clean is clean?” Personally, I think soap should remove dirt yet not strip all the oils from your skin. Maybe we are trying to be too clean? Perhaps by using soap that is super-fatted and contains glycerin you are cleansing without removing the endogenous oils.

Interesting that you mentioned shampoo. One of my hobbies is reading old pharmacopeias and cosmetic texts. Before detergents became available, shampoo would have been soap based. Today if you asked someone to use soap on their hair, they would not be satisfied with the result. Their hair would not feel clean.  Although soap-based shampoo bars are becoming more popular.

Sadly, most of my evidence is anecdotal. 

[Dr_Sara]

Clarification- When I mentioned the glycerin in soap, I am referring to the byproduct of saponification and not “glycerin soaps” (soap dissolved in glycerin).

[Dr_Sara]

Sadly, there is not really any interest in studying soap so I probably cannot cite any current studies.

If you compare soap without glycerin and soap containing glycerin, there is a difference. You can detect this just holding the two products before washing.

Most of the large soap manufacturers separate the glycerin from soap because they have two commercial products to sell.  Compare a bar of Ivory with a bar from a soap maker and see if you can tell the difference.

I suspect that the glycerin does not all wash away. Before I started making soap I would have doubted there was a  detectable difference. I am now completely convinced. 

Some substances leave a noticeable residue after a brief exposure. Squirt some honey on your hands, rub it around like soap and rinse it off. Although the honey is water-soluble, honey still is emollient following this brief exposure.

Combine the two, glycerin and honey, and you have a fantastic bar of soap!

[Dr_Sara]

Sorry @Perry but I have to disagree 😮

Perry said:

 Soap cleans the skin. It removes everything it can from the skin.  If you put extra ingredients in your soap, soap will not care if those ingredients are meant to affect the skin.  Soap will remove those ingredients too. They will have exactly zero effect on the skin. They may have an effect on the soap by making it less effective at cleaning the skin.

I agree that most of the soap is washed away in use. This the nature of any wash-off cosmetic. While soap cleans the skin, it really can do so much more.

Soap formulations vary significantly. While soap may cleanse the skin by removing dirt and oil… there will be differences in the amount of removal, the residue left behind, as well as the percutaneous absorbtion of the ingredients in soap depending on the formulation. 

A bar of “soap” will be a combination of soap molecules, glycerin, and unsaponified or partially saponified oils.  These may remain on this skin after washing. For example, a soap high in glycerin (some oils result is over 15% glycerin as a product of saponification) and oil will leave a film on the skin. As @perry mentioned this may because the soap is less effective at cleaning the skin.

Percutaneous absorbtion varies by a number of factors. Duration of contact, aqueous solubility, lipophilicity, and the presence of percutaneous penetration enhancers. 

Surfactants, including soap, can act as penetration enhancers.

see The effects of surfactants on penetration across the skin - WALTERS - 1993 - International Journal of Cosmetic Science 
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-2494.1993.tb00572.x

Other studies have shown that surfactants can increase transdermal permeation. see

​Status of surfactants as penetration enhancers in transdermal drug delivery J Pharm Bioallied Sci. 2012 Jan-Mar; 4(1): 2–9.

While this study is examining drug delivery, there is no reason not to hypothesize that the same may be true for ingredients added to soap.

In my opinion, soap is a sophisticated cosmetic product that is often dismissed as insignificant.

I will get off my soapbox now!

[Dr_Sara]

If you make a shampoo bar that is soap, the pH will be high. These formulations are historic- before the availability of detergents. Personally, I do not like the way they make my hair feel. Soap-based shampoo bars are very popular with consumers limiting their plastic consumption.

If you make a shampoo bar with detergents (ie sodium coco sulphate shampoo bars), you can lower the pH. Some add acid in various forms- citric acid, vinegar… I prefer these shampoo bars.

[Dr_Sara]

I just had a look online and found the following ingredient list: This is not in the appropriate format for EU labelling. It looks like a glycerin soap to me.

Ingredients overview

Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, De-Ionized Water, Sodium Hydroxide, Fragrance, Kojic Acid, Glycerin, Aqua, Xanthan Gum, Caprylyl Glycol, Glucose, Chondrus Crispus (Carrageenan), Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Cocodiethanolamide, Mineral Oil, Melaleuca Alternifolia (Tea Tree) Oil, Ci 15985, Ci 19140, BHT

They probably make the coconut soap first (the appearance of this does not matter much because it will be dissolved in glycerin). 
Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, De-Ionized Water, Sodium Hydroxide,

Then the Sodium Cocoate is dissolved, the glycerin soap made and the additional ingredients added. 
Fragrance, Kojic Acid, Glycerin, Aqua, Xanthan Gum, Caprylyl Glycol, Glucose, Chondrus Crispus (Carrageenan), Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Cocodiethanolamide, Mineral Oil, Melaleuca Alternifolia (Tea Tree) Oil, Ci 15985, Ci 19140, BHT

[Dr_Sara]

Kimjiwon said:

 I am using a cold process cause it is the require procedure. The problem is I don’t get the right procedure for this. I have a lot of trials mixing and changing phases to make it right. But all the result will end failed, It becomes brittle and like chalk. I don’t what to do. Can someone help me? 

I thought I wuld comment on soap making an your base recipe before adding the additional ingredients. 

Coconut oil will make a VERY hard soap. You should add a liquid oil. Another reason your soap may be brittle is that you are using too much NaOH. 

Why do you need to use the cold process? I am not sure what you mean by “changing phases”? upon addition of the lye solution, the oil phase begins to thicken and contimues to do so until the soap is finished.

If you send your formulation, I would be happy to tweak it for you.
Kind regards,
@dr_sara 

[Dr_Sara]

@LincsChemist,
It is incredibly frustrating. Why should the small producer follow the rules when the big boys are not?  

Things that really make me cringe are when people claim cosmetics are “free-from” things that would never be found in the product under normal circumstances. For example, soap that is “paraben-free”! Soap does not require a preservative and so it is very misleading and totally a marketing ploy to say soap is “paraben-free”.

This deceptive marketing is not limited to the cosmetic industry. If you want, you can buy “gluten-free” bicarbonate of soda. Maybe I am confused, but I cannot see how baking soda could ever contain gluten.

I really think there are two categories of companies that make “free-from”
claims. The first, the manufacturers who deliberately perpetuate misleading
information, and the second those who do not know the claims they are making are against the rules.

Many in the second category are small producers who struggle with keeping up with legislation. However, if these small businesses are made aware, they usually take measures to comply. 

Sadly, there are small producers who know they are making illegal claims and do not care. I actually had one tell us that until they are “caught” they will continue to perpetuate misleading information. 

[Dr_Sara]

 Lisani said:

what is the lowest allowed pH level of professional hair products (hair straightening) according to the regulations of EU and the US? taking into consideration that a “Safety Assessment” report is necessary.

In regards to EU regulation, pH alone will not determine the safety of a cosmetic. The Cosmetic Product Saftey Report (CPSR) is issued looking at all the ingredients and how they fit into the legal restrictions. 

Do you have a formulation in mind? I could have a look and see if it would be considered “safe”

[Dr_Sara]

HI @Abdullah 
You cannot make soap that is pH6 or below. You would do better using a detergent if you want a low pH.

If you make soap with NaOH and coconut oil, you get sodium cocoate. If you add an acid, the sodium is replaced by hydrogen (sorry chemists, not very academic terminology) and you end up with an acid and lose the soap. The pH is lowered at the sacrifice of the soap/bubbly bit. 

maybe a good example is the following
sodium stearate (soap) vs stearic acid

My soaps are around pH 9 
@@Dr_Sara needs a coffee…

[Dr_Sara]

Soap made with oil and hydroxide  yields a product with a final pH between 9 and 10 (after completion of saponification).

What is the pH of your soap?
????‍????????

[Dr_Sara]

You are very welcome!

[Dr_Sara]

You’re welcome.????

[Dr_Sara]

That is too bad.???? Everyone reacts differently to ingredients. My daughter does very well with a cream containing lanolin and mineral oil.

Have you tried a moisture cream with honey and propolis? Honey (mel) is emollient, and healing. Propolis (propolis cera) decreases sebum production. ????

Apparently Jojoba oil (Simmondsia chinensis seed oil) is the plant oil that is most similar to human sebum. Can you tolerate jojoba? 

[Dr_Sara]

Hello, What is the caustic soda for? Are you using any plant oils?

We have not been to Tamilnadu, but spent some time in Kolkata. My husband’s family is from Gujarat.

[Dr_Sara]

In a lip balm with a bit of honey and beeswax- delicious!????

[Dr_Sara]

I gave seen straight sided containers. Have a look at http://www.dormex.co.uk/metal-bottles.html

Dormex is in the UK but you might get hints of what to look for.????

[Dr_Sara]

3″ is the diameter, right?

[Dr_Sara]

What’s the diameter and height of the soaps?

[Dr_Sara]

You didn’t cause offense! I figured you thought I was in the US (we Americans are not the best at geography)! ????

On the subject of chocolate, I contacted the Belgian company Callebaut about their Ruby Chocolate. ????Wouldn’t pink cocoa products be fantastic in cosmetics? 

[Dr_Sara]

The structure of this EU allergen declaration is not at all standard. This information doesn’t provide much insight into how Naticide works.

I have a bit more geographic  knowledge than you might imagine. ???? We travelled through Zurich on our way to Lake Konstance in Germany. 

I am not sure I agree about French chocolate being better than Swiss. Maybe I should do further experiments. ????

Because of Covid, we have not left London this year.