[David08848]

…also here are a couple of other ingredients lists for somewhat current Noxzema creams of the same variety, one just cleansing and the other moisurizing:

Noxzema
Classic Clean Original Deep Cleansing Cream

Water, Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja
(Soybean) Oil, Fragrance, Eucalyptus Globulus (Eucalyptus) Leaf Oil, Propylene
Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Gelatin, Ammonium Hydroxide, DMDM Hydantoin, Calcium
Stearate, Disodium EDTA, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium
Sulfate, Calcium Bicarbonate, Potassium Chloride

Noxzema
Classic Clean Moisturizing Cleansing Cream

Water, Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja
(Soybean) Oil, Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, Fragrance, Gelatin, Phenoxyethanol,
Ammonium Hydroxide, Methylparaben, Camphor, Menthol, DMDM Hydantoin,
Propylparaben, Calcium Hydroxide, Eucalyptus Globulus Leaf Oil, Disodium EDTA,
Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride

Fragrance is pretty high up on the list of both of them.

Keep in mind, I am not trying to make an exact duplication but rather use the original list I posted as a model and make whatever additions and modifications I can to improve a basic product using TEA Stearate and Cetyl Alcohol as was listed in that MSDS sheet.

[David08848]

I did notice that but didn’t know if somehow the other ingredients next to it were in the 1% range.  If you took out “Fragrance” would the rest of the ingredients seem to be in order?

[David08848]

Clive,  This list is from a MSDS sheet from Procter & Gamble from 2004.  I am assuming it is in the correct order being that it is on an MSDS sheet from the company.

If I understand this correctly, I am seeking an O/W emulsion that has an  Anionic based emulsifier of TEA Stearate with an oil-soluble auxiliary of Cetyl Alcohol making it an O/W emulsion with mixed emulsifier.  This is a cleansing cream, not a Vanishing cream or a W/O emulsion Cold Cream.  I’ve spent days researching this and have found quite a bit of information on Vanishing Creams and Cold Creams but little on Cleansing Creams based on an O/W emulsification system with TEA Stearate and Cetyl Alcohol.

This may be too basic for some here but I’ll keep plugging away until I get it right!  I wish I had the background that some of you have but I don’t, so I have to ask for assistance.  When I get it, it is greatly appreciated!

[David08848]

So, lets turn this into a game!  Where do you think the 1% begins in this formula list?  😮

INGREDIENTS/CHEMICAL NAME  : 
WATER, STEARIC ACID, GLYCINE SOJA (SOYBEAN) OIL, FRAGRANCE, PROPYLENE
GLYCOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, LINUM USITATISSIMUM (LINSEED) SEED OIL, TRIETHANOLAMINE,
TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, CARBOMER, SODIUM HYDROXIDE, CAMPHOR, MENTHOL, EUCALYPTUS
GLOBULUS LEAF OIL. 2004

[David08848]

So, I had time to check out the fatty acid content of Soybean and Linseed oils and I found that they are both high is linoleic acid! I checked out other oils and find I have a few options like Evening Primrose and Safflower oil and apparently Sunflower oil can have high linoleic acid as well!
 
I’m still searching for a model formula with TEA and NaOH with Stearic Acid just to get a hand with percentages but if I don’t find a cleansing/cold cream formula I’ll just have to start guessing!

[David08848]

Here’s a downloadable .XLS sheet with some SAP values on it:
http://www.natural-soapmaking.net/calculator/

Here are a couple of charts that include a variety of SAP values:

http://www.pureheartsoaponline.com/calculating-saponification-value-sap-chart-lye-safety.html

http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Soap/Saponification_Chart.html

[David08848]

Clive, to the best of my knowledge there isn’t one or I would have found it by now! :'(

[David08848]

Seems Noxema has been reformulated several times over the years!  I found several ingredients lists including this one from 2004 which seems doable with the ingredients I have available:

INGREDIENTS/CHEMICAL NAME  : 
WATER, STEARIC ACID, GLYCINE SOJA (SOYBEAN) OIL, FRAGRANCE, PROPYLENE
GLYCOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, LINUM USITATISSIMUM (LINSEED) SEED OIL, TRIETHANOLAMINE,
TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, CARBOMER, SODIUM HYDROXIDE, CAMPHOR, MENTHOL, EUCALYPTUS
GLOBULUS LEAF OIL. 2004

I have to check out the fatty acid structure of Soybean Oil and Linseed Oil and see what I can substitute.  Soy has a distinct odor I don’t like and Linseed Oil makes me think of wood floors…

Carbomer is available from online resellers in at least 2 versions…

If anyone has any suggested amounts for these ingredients, I would appreciate it!  Thanks!

(P.S. - I looked through all of the Flick books I have and quite and few others and only found one possible formula. It does contain IMWITOR 960 - which I believe is Glyceryl Stearate SE ????)

[David08848]

Apparently, Noxema Cleansing Cream is quite popular in the shaving community so I think I’m going to check out that option and continue to look for formulations start with… anyone have any suggested formulas to share?

[David08848]

I’m now taking a look at “cleansing creams” as I have found quite a few references about their use on the shaving message boards.  I want to find a formula without mineral oil, petrolatum and the like but I do have an “unpetroleum jelly” by Strahl & Pitsch I could use. 

If you know of any formula that fill the bill, please feel free to share!  Thanks!

[David08848]

I guess this means I’m going to have to work a little bit harder!  I used to it!

Perhaps a “Pre-Wash” to “open up the hair follicles and softens the whiskers” is what I should be going for!  Ingredients like “Incroquat BTMS or cetrimonium bromide”?  Another use for “Octyldodecanol”, or Cetyl Alcohol?  Cetyl Esters?

I’m sitting here feeling how rough and dry my face whiskers feel and thinking how nice it would be to soften these whiskers before I test out my newest and hopefully “approved” version of my shaving creama and a “Pre-Wash” has some appeal to me…

Thanks for your input.  This is helping me to hone in on what I could possibly do and giving me some realistic insight on what is best to avoid!  Some positive suggestions about moving in this direction?

[David08848]

Belassi, We have hundreds of thousands of men who are quite interested in pre-shaving, shaving and post shaving products.  It is not a small market and many companies large and small are doing their best to fulfill their needs.

Bobzchemist - I am thinking about an after-shave toner type of product in the near future but for now I seek something to apply to the face before shaving that moisturizes the skin and the beard hairs.  In looking online in the last few minutes I am seeing mention of things like glycerin, shea butter and I am thinking of ingredients that are “soap-friendly” but create a nice emulsion and provide beard softening, provide a more slick surface on the face and assist the shaving cream in reducing nicks, cuts and razor burn.

[David08848]

So, it has been an interesting journey!  I have investigated every possibility I can think of and decided to follow Tom’s suggestion and I used Stearyl Alcohol with the Octyldodecanol in my formula.  Since my oil phase seemed to be too high, I had lowered it but found with these additives that it was better in a higher percentage so I raised the oil phase back to where it was. 

I had tried a variation of the Stearic/Myristic/Coconut ratio but I think my old ratio worked better so I did one last sample batch yesterday with the old ratio and it looks promising!  I will take home a sample and try shaving with it tomorrow!  If this one works then I will have come full circle almost back to where I was in the beginning however, the addition of Stearyl Alcohol seems to have given the formula the needed stability and structure and the Octyldodecanol has added to the “slip, glide and cushion” required for this type of product! 

The answer, in this case, was to take the needed space for the two additional ingredients out of the water phase!  This also helped with the production of the shaving cream as it created a better emulsion during the process.  I also found that adding the water phase to the oil phase in small increments made it easier to homogenize during the process and created a much smoother emulsion!  Thanks everyone for their support and participation!

Water,
Stearic Acid, Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin, Octyldodecanol, fragrance, Triethanolamine, Stearyl Alcohol, Sodium Hydroxide, Caprylyl Glycol, Phenoxyethanol,
Hexylene Glycol, Tetrasodium EDTA.

[David08848]

A friend got back to me so I now know that Diglycol Stearate is an ester with two moles of ethylene glycol and one mole of stearic acid not to be confused with (Ethylene)
Glycol distearate which has one mole ethylene glycol and two moles stearic acid – used as a pearlescent agent shampoos and shaving creams.

Ethylene
Glycol Distearate is just the opposite of Diglycol Stearate but they’re both
used in similar forms and functions as a pearlizing and opacifying agent in a
cream or a lotion or soap. Diglycol
Stearate will yield a softer product than Ethylene Glycol Distearate but can be saponified and has an SAP value from 150-170 which will effect production methods… but we’ll see!

[David08848]

I looked at Ruth Winter’s book but was unable to figure it out… I see  “Glycol Disterate” as an ingredient for another shaving cream…

Diglycol Stearate has listed “synonyms”as “Diethylene glycol distearate” and as is “Oxydiethane-1,2-diyl distearate”

Please help me figure it out! 

[David08848]

matt, I know what you mean about the alkali!  Some formulas are done in stages, some adding alkali gradually and fatty acid like stearic at the end and some combine all alkali together all at one time!

I can see the attraction to a gel but I’m not sure how that would work with my current product line… yes, the CETAC does have appeal… perhaps something to include in a preshave to assist in moisturizing the beard hair before shaving?  Whaddaya, think, matt?

[David08848]

Diethylene glycol distearate is listed as a “synonym” as is “Oxydiethane-1,2-diyl distearate”?

This book was published in 1964 and there are other mentions of it in the book…

[David08848]

Psst!  What is Diglycol Stearate?  I got what seems to be conflicting information when I tried to look it up!  (glycol monostearate or ethylene glycol monostearate)?  Stearic Acid?  OCTADECANOIC ACID?

[David08848]

Clive,  you see how different all of these formulation ingredients are and what a difference that makes in the results!

I ordered two more books and one arrived the other day.  “Cosmetics and the Skin” by Wells and Lubowe a 690 page book from 1964.  It has a total of 3 pages dedicated to Lather Shave Cream and only 3 formulas!  Only one was of any value and was a soap based formula with Coconut Oil, Stearic and Myristic Acid but only using Potassium Hydroxide to saponify.  It did, however, include Stearyl Alcohol at 1.00% saying that it “aids in water retention” and that it makes a “whiter cream than if replaced by cetyl alcohol”!  So that was helpful!  I have another book due in shortly.  It is just so frustrating to spend the time researching, the money purchasing another book only to find one formula and one ingredient that might be of any benefit!  But it is another piece in the puzzle!

[David08848]

Tom, I appreciate your help!  I now understand what you were saying.  I found a sample of Stearyl Alcohol and two buckets full of Cetyl Alcohol!  I see that the fatty acid soap will act as an “emulsifier” for the Octyldodecanol and hope that the Cetyl or Stearyl Alcohol will add the structure that this type of formula lacks.

I want to stay as close to the original “soap” formulation as possible as there are many companies still producing that type of formula with success and that is the market I am after, but I have no problem with some adjustments to give the formula better consistency and a more “robust” nature!  I am still considering Polyquarternium-7 in a small percentage for what it will give the skin and facial hairs to aid in shaving but I don’t want to go overboard!

My 600+ sq. ft. workroom is in the back of my retail space and is affected by seasonal temperatures but is insulated well so that they do not vary that much so having a “climate controlled” storage area is not possible at this time.  Today the temperature is 73 degrees and two of the 4 samples have become more stiff again (these two have a slightly higher oil phase) and the other two are relatively the same as two days ago!

All suggestions and observations are welcome and appreciated!  

[David08848]

As I have found over the past few years, formulating a shaving cream is not an easy task!  Each oil/fatty acid has a particular function in this kind of formula.  Stearic Acid provides dense lather with minute bubbles, coconut fatty acid helps with the lathering but has to be used in a particular ratio with the stearic to get just the right kind of lather!  Myristic is often suggested to replace some of the stearic acid to improve the lather because of the characteristics it brings.  KOH, Tea and NaOH are used in particular amounts as well to create a cream that has just the right structure for it’s purpose which opposed to most soaps is the lather it creates and not its ability to clean.  Fatty Acids are most desirable over oil because of the control you have using each fatty acid in a particular amount to create just the result you desire.  As is always the case there are many different aspects of this kind of product that are important to the formulator and as such many different suggestions to ratios of the oils and the bases as well as the water phase too!  Going over every suggested formulation available will give you quite a range of ingredient percentages per each formulator which doesn’t make it easy to find something that is going to work for you.  Although using two ingredients seems to have an appeal it won’t give you all the characteristics you desire in a formula.  “Slip, glide and cushion” as well as “moisturization and skin afterfeel” and although you can try to formulate with just two ingredients, success might not be an easy goal!  The only thing that comes to mind is that some people use a shaving oil which you might wish to investigate… good luck!

[David08848]

In going over “Glyceryl Stearate” I see that it has an SAP value of 155- 165!  So now I question using it in a saponifiable system.  What would it offer?

Perhaps I should just try the Octyldodecanol.  I am assuming that if I used it at 2% I would take that out of the water phase?

[David08848]

Tom et al,

Thanks for your input!  As I have found, these older formulations are not “robust” as Perry mentioned they should be so I don’t have a problem with adding a few things to aid in performance and stability!

I checked four formulation sample batches again and found that they all have become more liquid which is amazing since they stayed the same for several months!  I ran over and checked the thermostat in my space and found that the temperature which had been a constant 75 degrees during the Summer was now 70 degrees!  I also found mention in one of my old books that water amounts should change dependent upon the time of year for this type of formula!

I wrote about Glyceryl Stearate SE but Tom mentioned “Glyceryl Stearate” and “Glyceryl Stearate” is what I have on hand so does this sound OK to use?

I will try the Octyldodecanol since I found it in an old Flick formula from 1996 that included 2% Octyldodecanol and the same ingredients as mine except for 3% surfactant phase included.  I will replace that with TEA Stearate and the Glyceryl Stearate.  Hopefully, all of this will work!

I’m open for more input and whatever suggestions you all may have to offer!
Thank You!

[David08848]

OK, so I’m throwing an idea out here!  Here’s a list of possible ingredients I am considering:

Water,
Stearic Acid, Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin,
Glyceryl Stearate SE, Octyldodecanol, Polyquaternium-7, fragrance, Triethanolamine,  preservative, Sodium Hydroxide

Whaddaya think?  Percentages of the three ingredients?  Please share your opinion!  Thanks!

[David08848]

Tom, thanks for the info on the Octyldodecanol.  It is good to know that there might be some improvement in foam by using a small amount of this.  I am also considering fatty acids like capryllic/capric triglyceride and her “sister” fractionated coconut oil as well as the polymer polyquaternium-7 but I am open to suggestions for another option that would be readily available online, have a minimum I can meet and will work well with this shaving product so I’m all ears!  I would think that whatever combination of these would be used in a total of about 1% of the formula…  Thanks!