[David08848]

Back again!  I happen to have an old Brother P-Touch label maker that I use to make a “Tester” label for samples in my store and I decided to rub some of the shaving cream on them and found that the laminated service protected the label from any damage from the pH of the product so I began looking again and found a bunch of options for small label printers.  The P-Touch uses laminated surface to print on so I am looking through all the available brands to see what I can find that is similar to any of these that will work for this purpose.  If you have any experience with any of these I welcome your input!  Thanks!

[David08848]

Thanks Matt!  I have been looking at Avery labels and the surface under the tub is concave so that should help.  When you say they were a “pain to work with” what do you mean.  Were they hard to work with your hands, peel from the sheets, properly attach, print properly?  I need to resolve this issue and decide on the proper option before purchasing labels that gives the best results without spending a ton of money and keep my customers happy with the appearance of the packaging which unfortunately has been an issue with the labels I selected from Online Labels.  Thanks for your help!

[David08848]

Gunther said:

You can find some very old school vanishing cream recipes here
http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/vanishing-cream.php
but they are really old school and it shows.

Gunther, Thanks, this is a good source for vanishing creams that I had found before.  I often prefer older formulations because they seem to have just what is necessary and nothing for what we would now call “label wow”!  Also, that site has many pages of old formulas with the sourcing as well so it is valuable for me to have to work on the rest of my facial and shaving projects!  Thanks, Gunther!

[David08848]

Aziz, EVchem and ozgirl, I appreciate your input!  Things are looking a bit more clear now.  I just have to find a good source at the right price! ozgirl, funny but I had found that link before so now I can do some “comparison shopping”!  Thanks, one and all!

[David08848]

Now I’m confused… lol … anyone else have any input to help my confusion?  Thanks, guys!

[David08848]

EVchem, thanks!  I didn’t think about hardware stores, I’ll check it out and keep looking!
Fekher, I was wondering about using the glycerin that you suggested in the formula that Perry shared in place of the Propylene Glycol in that formula and I will take what you said into consideration, thanks!

[David08848]

The formulation includes Ethanol (denatured), SD Alcohol 40.  I have been looking for suppliers who are near New Jersey and New York and have found a couple but does anyone know what the going rate is for this product?  I don’t need to spend any more than needed!  I assume that this also would involve hazmat fees and one source did say that it’s price would be 1/2 if you picked it up yourself!  Any observations or experiences with Ethanol would be helpful!  Thank you!  David

[David08848]

Perry, Thanks so much for the formula!  I have the book but didn’t think it would have a formula for After-shave in it and it looks like a good, basic formula!  I haven’t worked with alcohol before (and I don’t drink it! :smile:) so what form of alcohol should I use for this type of product?  Thanks again, your assistance is appreciated!
David

[David08848]

Belassi said:

It’s a different fragrance from the previous one. We had run out and the supplier had changed it. Yes, it could be the cause.

It must be the cause!

[David08848]

My soap formulas use water at the rate of 2.5 X the amount of the lye and yours is even higher than that at 2.87.  I put it through SoapCalc myself, which I don’t normally use, and got the numbers you came up with.  I think the key here might be your temperature as was mentioned above.  Belassi, what temperature so you use for both your oil phase AND your lye phase?  Both are important!  I am typically in the 100-110F range for both…sometimes lower…

[David08848]

Belassi said:

I did consider using FFA’s as part of the oils to reduce the amount of glycerin produced and hopefully limit sweating, but then another problem occurs: the reaction time shortens to the point that no ‘artwork’ can be done, and worse, a high probability of ‘ricing’ due to the lye reacting preferentially with the FFA’s.

That would depend upon the Fatty Acids chosen!  Olive oil is often used in handcrafted soaps and that typically contains 82%-83% Oleic Acid which does produce a hard bar but does not speed up the saponification process the way a fatty acid like stearic acid would!  Choosing a moderately large amount of that, palmitic acid and coconut fatty acid in a somewhat smaller amount (20% to 30% range) might produce soap with no problems.  Also, another thing would be the lye solution strength which could be changed to make the process slower as well…  I think it’s possible!

[David08848]

First, I am working in ounces not grams (which really doesn’t matter). I was describing two different options of your original formula, as I saw them and the second one seems to work the best like this:

256.5/120 X 92.09/1 = 23.621/120 ~ x/100 = 19.68%

I don’t see this as complicated at all.  It easily gives me the approximate amount of glycerin in one part of Coconut Oil which is what I am seeking.  You do the first calculation then change the ratio to 100% then you get the percentage of the glycerin at the end.

Thanks, Pharma!

I just have to decide whether I want to lower the amount of the fatty acids that I am using to replace one of the oils and add back the difference in glycerin while adjusting the amounts of NaOH and KOH based on the lower amounts of the fatty acid used or whether I could just leave them as they are and add more glycerin.  Either way, as the author of Harry’s Cosmeticology said about making shaving cream “it is very much an art”!

[David08848]

Pharma said:

These 20% are what you get when actually calculating my proposed formula . Depending on the quality of coconut oil, you may subtract 5-10% from those 20% depending on the amount of free fatty acids.

Pharma, You didn’t indicate whether I had gotten your “proposed formula” right but I’ll go with it:

256.5/120 X 92.09/1 = 23.621/120  then if I divide and 23.621 by 120, I come up with 0.196.8/1  Is that correct? 

Or do I take the 23.621/120 ~ x/100 = 19.68 which would be right in the 20% range!  That make more sense to me but I still want to know if it is correct!

[David08848]

Thanks Pharma and Belassi!  I’ve been aware of the difference in using fatty acids and oils in regards to the glycerin content but never attempted to try and calculate it to find out the actual percentages of glycerin in the oils being used in some of the sample formulations.  In retrospect, I should have done it years ago!  I’ll be able to compare sample formulations in a different light now! 

Belassi, having been a soapmaker for 20 years, I understand what you are saying but have encountered very little of what you are saying in my work but sometimes a fragrance can do the same thing. (but my products have also been kept in air-conditioned places over the years!)  “Green Tea” was one that proved to be difficult with some versions “sweating” seasonally and other versions “sweating” on a regular basis!  Now I understand why the process of “salting out” during some soapmaking (tons of info in old soapmaking books) occurs!  You would think that soapmaking would be a simple concept with simple procedures whether it is handcrafted soaps, shaving soaps or shaving cream (which is what this question is referring to)!  Thank you both for your assistance.  It helped explain this aspect of formulation and proved that my trip down this pathway was the right move to make!  YAY!!!!!!!!

[David08848]

Belassi, good to hear from you!  WOW!  That sounds like an awful lot of glycerin for either coconut oil or palm kernel oil to possess but it certainly would make a difference when one replaced coconut oil or palm kernel oil with Coconut Fatty Acids, or Lauric or Myristic Acid!  Something to consider…  Thanks!

[David08848]

256.5/ 3×40 (40 - the molecular weight of NaOH) x 92.09 (92.09 - the molecular weight of Glycerol) =  X  mg per gram of Coconut Oil  ?

I’m not sure of the math symbols you are using…

I just want to know the typical percentage found in one part of coconut oil and one part of palm kernel oil.

Thanks…

[David08848]

Actually it is about a 4/1 ratio for the lyes!

[David08848]

So when I do the math:

x/4 ~ 47.3/100 = 1.892 (1.9)  with 2.1 H2O  and

x/20 ~ 49.8/100 = 9.96 (10)  with 10.04 (10) H2O

making the formula:

Stearic Acid            50%
Coconut Acids        12%
KOH                       10%
NaOH                     1.9%
H2O                       26.1% 

---

                              100%

Is this correct?  Looks like it to me!
 
The H2O percentage is a little high but it doesn’t have glycerin in it and I could add 5%-10% which would put the H2O in the right range also the lyes are in about a 5/1 ratio which is similar to other formulas…

Thanks again!

[David08848]

Ozgirl - You’re the freakin’ best!  :blush:

[David08848]

ozgirl, thanks!  I did find this page but since I don’t have a cosmetic chemistry background, I don’t have a clue what all of these things are.  Anything I have read so far hasn’t told me anything that I understand.  I just need to know how much NaOH (and KOH) is being used in this formula and how much water would be a part of each solution.  Sorry, for my ignorance but I know what I know and what I don’t know I’m willing to try and learn! 

[David08848]

Pharma, So by looking at the numbers of the KOH and NaOH solutions how do I determine what the approximate numbers are for each of those and the percentage of water in each?

[David08848]

…and, of course, the US Patent and International Patent Sites…my old friends!

[David08848]

Download it but it only had one formula and that was for shaving soap fragrance! 

[David08848]

Thank you.  When I am trying to create a new product I go out there and look for any formulation that is available for that kind of product.  Usually, when I find several formulas then often patterns emerge.  Specifically, I am looking a shaving soap formula and I have found most of them are in either old soapmaking books or cosmetic chemistry books.  Shaving Cream formulas were quite numerous and it was not difficult to find several formulas that have phases with similar sizes and similar ingredients.  Shaving Soap formulas, however, are not quite as readily available and many of them are from the early 1900’s rather than the mid 1900’s and as such they mostly contain KOH and NaOH with Baume numbers listed and many of these are also made in soap crutchers rather than using a cold or hot process.  Nonetheless, it is a formula that I can learn something from. 

Yes, I can use the amount of the oil phase and calculate the SAP values for NaOH and KOH with them in whatever ratio I wish to try but I want to see what ratios they used and why!  For me, it has been easier to work with several sample formulas to enable me to at least be somewhere in the ballpark where the numbers are concerned!  This is why I want to be able to calculate the formulas I have found to see what direction they are using and what ratios of lyes as well as the size of water and oil phases. From there I always do what you have suggested and make several batches, testing each for direction I need to go and work from there. So hopefully you better understand my process and my needs.  Thanks again for you help!  Time to look for some “mid-century modern” 1900’s formulas!

[David08848]

Pharma et al,

I found a calculation I made years ago but I am not sure it is correct.  When I put these numbers through a lye calculator both KOH and NaOH numbers are lower than what this formula shows:

35 Baume = 28.83% solution = 11.53 lbs. lye and 28.47 lbs. H2O

50 Baume = 49.40% solution = 271.70 lbs. lye and 278.30 lbs H2O

This formula changed from Baume solution percentages to lye amounts
plus total H2O looks like this with the original listing turned into a formula based on 100% on the right:

300 lbs.          Coconut Oil               14.85%

11.53 lbs.        NaOH                         2.32%

271.70 lbs.     KOH                           13.45%

80 lbs             Glycerin                     3.96%

1050 lbs.        Stearic Acid                51.21%

306.77            H2O                           14.96%     ______________________________________________

2020                                                   100%

I am not sure whether the original calculations of the Baume ingredients are correct.  Would you kindly look it over and see if is it correct?

Thanks!

David