[David08848]

Perry,

I have this Waring WSB50 12″ Big
Stik Variable Speed Heavy-Duty Immersion Blender - 120V which I have used before for handcrafted soap but it might be OK with this if I am careful not to get air into the batch.  My concern would be the homogenization phase the next day but if the batches are homogenized properly the first day it might be easier.  I’ll still check out the links and see what I find.

Thanks!

[David08848]

Thanks, Perry!  I’ll look through all of those great options!  Anything is better than what I am using now!  I just have to be careful of aeration!

I’ll keep researching and see if I can answer any of my own questions but if anyone has anything to add, that will be great.  I’ve learned to ask for help when I need it and I appreciate it when it comes my way!  Thanks, Perry!

[David08848]

I took the above formula posted and did an analysis of the lye percentages:

Oil	Percent	SAP Value	Quantity
Coconut Oil	22.22%	256.5	10 oz
Palm Oil	11.11%	199.5	5 oz
Stearic Acid	66.67%	208	30 oz
Total:			45 oz

Lye and Water

Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) 16.66%

Discount	NaOH	Water
0 %	1.188 oz	2.4 oz    (range: 1.2 to 3.6 oz)
1 %	1.176 oz	2.4 oz    (range: 1.2 to 3.5 oz)
2 %	1.164 oz	2.3 oz    (range: 1.2 to 3.5 oz)
3 %	1.153 oz	2.3 oz    (range: 1.2 to 3.5 oz)
4 %	1.141 oz	2.3 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.4 oz)
5 %	1.129 oz	2.3 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.4 oz)
6 %	1.117 oz	2.2 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.4 oz)
7 %	1.105 oz	2.2 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.3 oz)
8 %	1.093 oz	2.2 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.3 oz)
9 %	1.081 oz	2.2 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.2 oz)
10 %	1.069 oz	2.1 oz    (range: 1.1 to 3.2 oz)

Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) 83.34%

Discount	KOH	Water
0 %	8.136 oz	16.3 oz   (range: 8.1 to 24.4 oz)
1 %	8.055 oz	16.1 oz   (range: 8.1 to 24.2 oz)
2 %	7.973 oz	15.9 oz   (range: 8.0 to 23.9 oz)
3 %	7.892 oz	15.8 oz   (range: 7.9 to 23.7 oz)
4 %	7.811 oz	15.6 oz   (range: 7.8 to 23.4 oz)
5 %	7.729 oz	15.5 oz   (range: 7.7 to 23.2 oz)
6 %	7.648 oz	15.3 oz   (range: 7.6 to 22.9 oz)
7 %	7.567 oz	15.1 oz   (range: 7.6 to 22.7 oz)
8 %	7.485 oz	15.0 oz   (range: 7.5 to 22.5 oz)
9 %	7.404 oz	14.8 oz   (range: 7.4 to 22.2 oz)
10 %	7.322 oz	14.6 oz   (range: 7.3 to 22.0 oz)

So going over the figures it would seem that it would work out to an 8% lye discount, which is higher than I expected but that may allow some of  the Stearic Acid to not saponify and to produce a soap that is creamier?

[David08848]

Baylee, Castor Oil has Ricinoleic Acid which makes a very water-soluble soap which is why it can “assist” other oils to lather better but it produces large bubbles not tiny bubbles which are the kind that a shaving soap needs and it also dissolves very quickly compared to other soaps.  However, it is a great oil for liquid soap!

[David08848]

All of that sounds pretty amazing!  What sounds interesting are the “bath cubes”!  I tried to look them up and found some pictures of old ones available online for sale.  Are they bath salts, foaming bath salts, some kind of cube with moisturizers and scent in it?

I decided to look through my hundreds of bottles of fragrance oils that I have in my closets while I was organizing them the last three days and found several example of Almond fragrances from bottles of Benzaldehyde to Almond fragrance oils.  I chose one from a company I have done a great deal of business with that has additional Vanilla and woody notes and I mixed it with the floral notes and came up with a scent that is better than the original!  I looked up the sources for the Benzaldehyde I had purchased and found these companies aren’t carrying it any longer!  What a surprise! 

[David08848]

Perry, Thanks for check those out for me and providing all that information.  I’m not sure this formula is where I want to go with this project.  This part is a little confusing:

“What Is It?

Steapyrium
Chloride and Lapyrium Chloride are white to light cream-colored
powders. In cosmetics and personal care-products, these ingredients are
used in hair preparations, including shampoos, as well as in skin care
and skin-cleansing preparations.

Why is it used in cosmetics and personal care products?

Steapyrium
Chloride and Lapyrium Chloride prevent or inhibit the buildup of static
electricity when used in the formulation of hair care products. These
ingredients also help to cleanse the skin or to prevent odor by
destroying or inhibiting the growth of microorganisms.”

I’m thinking is was used as an anti-microbial?

Anyway, I am trying to make an “after-shave” and found some after-shave creams that also contain Witch Hazel in them which has an appeal to me.

I don’t mind taking ideas from old formulas as along as they work, have ingredients that are easy and inexpensive to acquire and do exactly what they are designed to do without all the extra ingredients for label “wow”!  I’ll keep looking and see what else I can find!  Perry, thanks for the info!  It’s just as helpful to find out that there are some places you shouldn’t go as it is to find that you’re headed in the right direction!

[David08848]

John,

So, did this factory make the Shaving Soaps and Shaving Creams as well?  If so, did they have specialized equipment for each of those as well?

I know what you are saying about the black streaks in cracked soap!  I remember noticing that many, many years ago but haven’t happened to see that phenomenon since that time.  They must have found a way to work around that!

Just curious, do you know how many of products that you were involved in developing are still being offered today?  That would certainly make an interesting comparison with what is being currently offered!

[David08848]

WOW!  This is quite a pleasant surprise!  You certainly must have quite a
background in the Men’s Shaving and Bath and Body products!  Thank you, kind sir for your assistance!

I had not heard that they had done custom fragrancing before!  If you have any other things to share, I’m all ears!  Interestingly enough, there are quite a few formulas from various sources whether it be Cosmetic Chemistry books, Soap making books and other online publications that are quite similar in ingredients and in percentage use of those ingredients.  Although the ingredients list is not very long, the balance of all of the ingredients and proportion used is extremely important!  For that reason alone, I decided to attempt formulating that type of product.  The only new thing about this type of formulation would be the preservative but that’s OK with me and it seems OK with the Shaving community! 

Thanks again for your information, everyone!

[David08848]

Taylor of Old Bond Street is a British company and the LOI is how they list it in the U.K.  In the U.S. this is the listing. Note the one ingredient missing from the package sold by a reseller:

“Ingredients: Aqua (Water), Stearic
Acid, Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin,
Benzaldehyde, Triethanolamine, Sodium Hydroxide,
Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone”

Sometimes scent descriptions describe aspects of scents that are not actually there.  I’ve seen Almond scents described as having a “Cherry note”.   The cinnamon leaf oil is listed under “Contains” but is not written into the description.  This is all odd but apparently it does happen.

I don’t doubt what you are saying but I have used the Benzaldehyde in a shaving cream and it is quite strong after several weeks but it was used at too high a percentage in error. Going over the original formula, I knew I needed to reformulate and questioned the use of the benzaldehyde.  I can check with fragrance companies and see if benzaldehyde or any aldehydes are present in there products but I think there’s a good chance that these products from several of my fragrance suppliers are fine to use, otherwise I would have found out before and they probably wouldn’t be selling them.  I just have to stop using the benzaldehyde!  Thanks for your input!  Hopefully this will help someone else in the future for whom this may be an issue!

[David08848]

So, it would be like any formulation you found online in that you should check each and every ingredient listed to make sure they are appropriate to use and will meet with today’s standards.  That would make some of the formulas in this document unusable and but other may be fine.

[David08848]

John, Would your recommendation be to not use benzaldehyde and switch to an “Almond fragrance oil” from a reputable company?  There actually are quite a few almond soaps and shaving creams about including one from Taylor of Old Bond Street who lists this:

A rich and sweet scented shaving cream that creates a smooth and creamy lather for a better shave.

Not recommended for those with sensitive skin.

Fragrance Notes:
Almond
fragrance sweetened by marzipan, vanilla and a hint of maple syrup
supported by a heart of precious woods, dry fruit and nuts. Contains:
Cinnamon Leaf oil.

Product Code: 01002

Ingredients:
Aqua (water), stearic acid, myristic acid, potassium hydroxide, coconut
fatty acid, glycerine, triethanolamine, sodium hydroxide, benzaldehyde,
benzyl alcohol, Methylchloroisothiazolinone,
methylchloroisothiazolinone.

[David08848]

No problem!   Any info on Benzaldehyde?

[David08848]

Mark, I’m using Benzaldehyde not Benzyl Alcohol.

[David08848]

Mark, It sound like somewhere between 0.08 and 0.8 might be the safest amount to use but I don’t think that 0.08 is going to offer enough scent strength.  I need to narrow it down before I experiment but I’m not sure how much is too much and how much is too little between those two numbers!  Thanks for your input!

[David08848]

Bob, That polymer looks interesting!  I see formulas for bath and shampoo products that look interesting there!

You are certainly right about Trychemistry!  I need to think more that way, learn to make only one change at a time
and experiment with several batches to see which is best before going on
to the next aspect!  The results of yesterdays batch are softer and more pearlescent than the others so that’s a step in the right direction! I’ll know more when it is scented and homogenized!

I tend to “overthink” in all of my projects (and in life) so I decided to ask a question here before I went down another dead end.  I figure that if my hypothesis is wrong I won’t waste the time going there and hopefully someone else may benefit by the posts left behind here in the future.  I am fortunate to have discovered the late Maurice Hevey who volunteered on a soapmaking message board as well as his Yahoo page Cosmetic Lab that I joined where I learned to work with formulas (not recipes!) based on 100% and begin to think as a chemist.  In my mind, it is a much better approach for soapmakers and those who dabble in cosmetic formulation.

Your response is true as far as using the cosmetic chemist approach but sometimes fear or lack of confidence stops us from going down a certain road without some reassurance from some of the experts here on Perry’s board.  I am grateful for that and appreciate your help, all of you!

[David08848]

Each of the bases used gives the shaving cream certain essential characteristics.  It’s true that KOH is the most important of the three as it creates a soap that is a bit more soluble but NaOH also adds “body” to the KOH and needs to be used at a particular ratio to the KOH to perform well.  Somewhere in the 5/1, 6/1, 7/1 range.  TEA adds creaminess to the lather and helps to contribute to the pearlessence of the cream.  (Castor Oil is high in Ricinoleic acid which does produce lather but the bubble size is too great and the soap that is created is too water soluble to last very long)

As far as the oil phase, Stearic Acid is your main ingredient here because it creates a lather that is full of tiny bubbles that don’t break down too easily and assists in creating emollient lather but since it’s lather isn’t the best for this purpose used alone it needs some assistance.  Often Myristic Acid is used in this type of formula because of where it sits on the fatty acid chain and coconut oil or coconut fatty acids are used in even smaller percentages also because of their lathering characteristics.

Since this kind of formula is from the early to mid 20th century, it would be the best idea to do your research using cosmetic chemistry or soap making books from that period.  I have done a ton of research since 2004 and have a document that is 158 pages that includes formulas and information from these kind of books, my observations and experimentation and my numerous formulas trying out different hypotheses.  I’m almost there but need to go down one more road before I can call my formula perfect.

[David08848]

True, but I would like to stay with Glycerin and am concerned about the percentage.  I decided to do a test production batch of 100 oz. yesterday and I went up to 10%!  I must say it was easier to stir during the brief 5+ minute saponification process but I’ll know more when I homogenize it. 

There is always water loss in my process but since it is so short it usually isn’t higher than 1-2% so I can always add more glycerin to replace the water in two previous batches from the day before.

It is just frustrating to have some sources who say “don’t go any higher than 5%” and others that suggest “10-15%”!  Poucher did say it would make it “softer” and that is what I need!

[David08848]

I see that it is a Croda formulation but only available in Latin America so we cannot view it.

The water phase works out to about 59-60%. 

Perhaps the Stearic Acid is higher than 7.5%???

[David08848]

I’m bringing this back up as I can going over my shaving cream formula again to see where I might make some subtle changes!  Above I said:

“As far as my product is concerned, I am seeking to give it a bit more
“slip and glide” and to leave behind a nice “skin feel”.  This is why I
was considering raising the level of glycerin.  I am aware that too much
glycerin can effect lather and many textbooks I’ve read suggested not
to go any higher than 5%!”

Well, I just read “Poucher’s Perfumes, Cosmetics and Soaps” where he suggested:

“A humectant glycerol, sorbitol an propylene glycol is usually included at 10-15% to minimize drying out of the cream and to make the cream slightly softer.”

I’ve been keeping my formula around 5-6% but have found it too stiff at times even though it softens up in time and some customers have complained about the “slip, glide and cushion” but others think it is fine.

I am concerned about dropping the H2O level which is where I will be taking it from when I add more to the glycerin.  Any thought, observations or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!  Thank you!

[David08848]

johnb - I’ll check it out!  I am in New Jersey (and NYC) so I am looking for local chemical companies which is made easier because so many of the chemical companies are located in these two states!  Thank you!

Bill_Toge - Oleic Acid might be a good option and it certainly would give more label wow to the more natural crowd!  I am assuming that I would process the saponification of my formula and I would add the Oleic Acid the next day when I homogenize the batch and add fragrance.  I am also thinking it might be in a fairly low percentage say from 1-2%?

I’ll keep looking around for more info on both ingredients!  Thanks for your help!

[David08848]

Interestingly enough, I found this discussion while looking up information on Polyox that was listed by Bill_Toge and the current discussion was recommended by johnb!  I have been looking for suppliers that carry it but as a small company I probably can’t meet their minimums…  there are other options listed here though!  I’m bringing this back because of the information it provides…

[David08848]

Interestingly enough, I found this discussion while looking up
information on Polyox that was listed by Bill_Toge and the current
discussion was recommended by johnb!  I have been looking for suppliers
that carry it but as a small company I probably can’t meet their
minimums…  there are other options listed here though!  I’m bringing
this other post back because of the information it provides…

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/624/shaving-cream-formulating-tips

[David08848]

johnb,

Thanks so much for your reply!  I am surprised to hear of this reaction to using TEA in shaving creams.  My understanding was that it add “creaminess” to the lather and I haven’t had any problem with it like you described but fragrances do have that effect on product color and sometimes a quite strong effect!

As far as my product is concerned, I am seeking to give it a bit more “slip and glide” and to leave behind a nice “skin feel”.  This is why I was considering raising the level of glycerin.  I am aware that too much glycerin can effect lather and many textbooks I’ve read suggested not to go any higher than 5%!  Many of the formulas I have collected are at 5% but some recent ones, including one that was posted here:

“saleemSeptember 15, 2012 at 1:19 am

if you want to become a practical formulator of top
industries including cosmetic ,soap industry and many more formulation then
visit at

http://www.chemicalformulaservices.com

Here is a simple formulation of shaving cream with its simple procedure.

(A)

Stearic acid =                        30.00%

Coconut oil =                        10.00%

Palm Oil =                             5.00%

(

Caustic potash =                  7.00%

Soda caustic =                      1.50%

Glycerin =                             10.00%

water =                                  36.50%

Process.

Part (A) and Part ( separately Heated in the vessels at 75 centigrade temp

After this mix both parts till it become homogeneously.

Add the perfume in the end at 35 centigrade.

It is a simple formulation which raw material easily available in the market.”

This formula contains glycerin at 10% and I was wondering what your experience might have suggested to you about the usage percentage in this kind of formula?

I recently found some formulas with Tea Strearate at 3% for a shaving cream which surprised me which was why I was wondering about usage rates that high!  Anything you may wish to add of share would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks again for your input!

[David08848]

johnb, I have seen some like that but the particular formula I was looking at didn’t list the “to 100%) for either ingredient and I have seen others like that.
Bobzchemist - Thanks for the further explanation.  I have often heard “take it out of the water phase” but not about taking it out of the ingredient that’s used at the highest percentage.  But most often that would be the water anyway!   I’ve taken to writing down the manufacturing techniques and timing as well even those these are my formulas but I find it helpful when I go back to make something I haven’t made in a while!  Thanks again to everyone for their input!

[David08848]

Thanks, Belassi!  I guess it could also be because the phases that include these ingredients are done the next day?