David08848
Forum Replies Created
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I came back in today and found… that batch #35… drum roll… is now
firm again! The top appeared moist and glistening but upon placing the
metal spatula in it I found it to be much more firm and pasty… It
just keeps changing between the two!
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Thanks for your reply, Belassi. It seems that this type of shaving cream has the reputation of changing over a period of time which I was aware of and read up on back in 2004 in Thomssen’s book, Modern Soap Making from 1937. He mentioned changes over a period of about a month after the soap is made, referred to this period as “rotting” during which the soap takes on it’s final appearance. What I am describing it that my batch has gone back and forth between liquid and solid stage several times which I have never experienced before. The fragrance and preservative are not added until the next day or so after the batch is made and it is homogenized at this time. The batch is stored in a sealed plastic bucket during this time and I’ve never had a batch go from paste to liquid, back to paste and then back to liquid in the first few days like this. I wondered if because I lowered the oil phase in this formula if I am right on the line where the product goes to either solid or liquid because of the closeness or ratios of the ingredient/water/bases percentages!
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I thought yesterday finding was odd but today’s is even more odd! I came back in and lifted the cover of #35 expecting to see the batch I had fluffed up all over the container to be as it was but is is now back to being SOUP! The temperature in my building is maintained a 75 degrees F so that hasn’t changed!
Am I at the peculiar point right on the edge between liquidity and solidity with this formulation?
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Three days ago, I posted this:
“OMG! I came back two days later because I have problem with my car and
went in the back to check #35 and found that container of fluffy, moist
paste had turned to SOUP!”Today, I went into my workroom, took the cover off of #35 and it appeared to be still “soupy” until I stuck a small metal spatula into it and found it to be moist, pearlescent, smooth paste! I stirred the top around and about and found it that way all over! It’s actually just the consistency I wanted!
I’m at a loss thinking about this and wondering what I should do and where I should go from here! I’ll check out the other batches and see what I find! 😮
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Back again from Stupidland! In my “brilliant” attempt at formula comparison between the original and #35 I didn’t take into account the changes I made to make those numbers work! I added 6% to the water phase of the original 111.14% formula (making it 116.94 with corrections to the glycerin percentage and preservative as well) to make the numbers match with the 100% formula #35 and then wondered why I ended up with SOUP not SOAP!
When I recalculated the formula late last evening, I actually ended up with the same numbers as #26 which were the numbers I’ve been working with in many of the formula attempts. It may be that I have to go back to #26 and use the 42% oil phase rather than the 39.75% oil phase of #35 or I may have to find a number somewhere between the two!
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Ingredients:
Water, Stearic Acid, Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Glycerin,
Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, fragrance, Sodium
Hydroxide, Triethanolamine, Caprylyl Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Hexylene Glycol, Tetrasodium EDTAI lowered the soap phase, left the glycerin the same and raised the water phase.
Obviously, it is a balancing act and I’m finding out what the limits are!
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OMG! I came back two days later because I have problem with my car and went in the back to check #35 and found that container of fluffy, moist paste had turned to SOUP! It had changed from day 2 to day 3 but I wasn’t expecting this! Granted, I had some warnings from the old books about changes over time but considering what I started with, I didn’t think it would turn out like this! I quickly went through the containers of the batches I made so far and found the batch #26, 2nd revision with the same amount of glycerin as this formula seems to be the right consistency now and the batch #26 1st revision with a larger amount of glycerin also isn’t bad either. Of course that means I will be going back to the larger (not largest) oil phase and appropriate changes in the NaOH, KOH and TEA and the water will be reduced by about 2% but after 10 days I would think it has settled for the most part. I’m still taken back by this but I’ll jump right back in and see how I can fix this! I’d welcome any suggestions!
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“What a difference a day makes! 24 little hours!” The shaving cream is actually a bit more soft than yesterday so I’ll leave it as it is for the moment! I do need to shave with it next just to make sure it behaves appropriately!
I went back and looked at the original formula I had and had made some changes which made the 100% formula go up to about 111.14%! I put it through an amount to Percentage Calculator to get it back to 100% and found it was extremely close to Formula #35 which I have chosen to use! I see now what choices I had made over time that weren’t the right ones but now also see which were the right ones and why! A small change may impact in a way you are hoping it will but there are other ingredients in the formula with which it may create results you weren’t expecting! Yesterday I mentioned adding more glycerin. Today in doing the analysis I realized that the using the same amount (rather than increasing the amount) will react to certain aspects of the formula that you may not have taken into consideration! My oil phase is now lower as is the base (KOH, NaOH, TEA) so using the same percentage in the glycerin is going to make some changes to the relationship between the three of them! In a way it seems as if you had added more glycerin but you haven’t but because the other phases are lower it behaves in a different way and as a result I found I really didn’t need to add more! I know this really isn’t rocket science but for me it was an important lesson as it would be for those here who are newer to the cosmetic chemistry world. This is one of the reasons I decided to share all of this on Perry’s board. I knew that I needed to make a change in the size of the “soap” portion of this formula but didn’t see that besides helping the pasty aspect of the product, it would also enable the glycerin to provide the characteristics I was seeking from it because it was no longer “overwhelmed” by the “pasty base”! I now will try to look at things a little differently when I formulate new products! Thanks to Perry, and Clive for his assistance and thank you for coming along for the ride!
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I’m just about there! I think I did about 14 different formulas and found the balance I was trying to achieve! I am surprised how small some of the adjustments were but once I got the oil phase in the right percentages then everything else seemed to fall into place! I am going to up the glycerin just a little to see what effect that might have. So many formulas have a higher percentage of glycerin in them but I have found that it effects the lathering ability of the product as well as consistency and liquidity! I have achieved a smooth, moist paste which will work well for packaging and it is pretty much equal in that respect to similar products out there, which is great! The oddest part of this is that I wrote this final formula several weeks ago but hadn’t tried it yet and the lowering of the oil phase was small but apparently enough to make just the right amount of difference! I was amazed to find how small the changes needed to be yet how big a learning curve there was! It was a good experience! Thanks for your help and support!
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Perry et al,
I can understand that this is a difficult subject to discuss in this forum but it does need to be brought up and dealt with because of the way things have become in all online forums. Bickering and outright bashing are commonplace in forums nowadays and I always enjoyed coming here because that is something that rarely happens on cosmetic chemistry boards especially this one. The post you are referring to is one that made me feel uncomfortable and I was thinking about bringing up that issue myself. It may just be a matter of more careful moderation and more stringent rules and an occasional reminder on this topic and if need be some new rules posted. I have confidence that it will be dealt with and we will move on.
Keeping all of the posts in one area is important for us all to feel that same and not point out our differences. If you wish to put up a new category for those of us who ask “basic cosmetic chemistry question” or “cosmetic chemistry student question” or even “home crafter question” that might help. Bob mentioned his “approach” but I don’t have a problem with him or his or other peoples way of dealing with questions. I know I am quite “wordy” at times and something that may annoy someone but that is how I think through things and the answers I get here are usually very helpful in putting me back on track! The important thing is to keep us all together! If someone doesn’t like certain people or certain types of questions, they don’t have to read them! If they prefer more complex questions maybe a “advanced cosmetic chemistry question” or “advance formulation question” be put up as an option to steer them toward questions they prefer.
Perry, I am grateful to have this place to come to when I need help and to those who have helped me! I know we will get through this and will be able to hold out heads up high and know that we are doing our best to get along and help each other out!
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Today’s results weren’t bad! It was stiff when I began to homogenize the batch today but within a short time it became more and more liquid! This was much easier with the added H2O to the formula but I think 3 ounces might be as high as I need to go! The results seemed a bit more liquid than I desire which I attribute to the glycerin. I worked out another version of the same formula and am following what Bobzchemist suggested in another post:
“I also have to point out that it’s frequently a bad idea to give too
much credence to published theories of how much of an ingredient to use.
(Unless it’s safety levels - pay close attention to those)
One
source says 5% and the other says 15%? That shouldn’t be confusing, it
should be a good excuse for experimenting! Try your formula at 5, 10,
15, even 20% and see what happens.
Way too many chemists and
formulators recently seem to be hung-up by “the expert says x” or “the
literature says y”, so this is what I must slavishly adhere to. I call
Bogus. Try it yourself at a range of values and see what happens! This
is the ONLY way you move from being a recipe-follower to being an actual
chemist
(Please insert the appropriate safety precautions
here. Know your materials, actually read the MSDS, kids don’t try this
at home, keep away from open flame, etc.)”I went from 10% glycerin down to 8% in this formula today and will try 6% and see how that goes! (I can always homogenize the 6% with the 10% if the 8% works out better!) Since the consistency of the product is important, I want to get that looking good then I can make tests with the cream to see how it shaves! One of the 10% creams I lathered with last week seems thicker and more luxurious but the lather didn’t seem as light as is should be! Again, having to achieve a balance!
So far, the ratio of oils and fatty acids and the original amount actually seem fine and I will keep them the same! The figures for the lye were not correct and now they are now the correct numbers! The TEA was too high and there needed to be a 3/1 ratio in the Tea Stearate even though their “stoichiometric relationship for making
TEA-Stearate is 2:1 stearic acid to 99% TEA.” as told to me by Kevin Young who also stated “You should always use slightly more stearic acid
than the alkali to prevent having any free alkali in the product.” so I made that adjustment in the formula. Now it is time to play with the glycerin to see where that should go! Hopefully, this will all work out with these tests and corrections! -
I made up a batch today and added 4 ounces of water to the percentage that I had listed in the formula. I poured the lye/water/glycerin etc. into the heated oil phase in five separate increments and continually stirred until it all smoothly came together. I weighed the batch and was about 3.75 ounces less than what I put in so I covered it and left it the bath for a couple of extra minutes then pulled it out and set it aside to cool down! Tomorrow should be interesting!
So far, so good!
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This formula above has brought me to thinking about the percentage of water I am using in my formula. Up until now I have never seen a formula for this kind of product that “figures in” a percentage of water loss!
After analyzing 5 batches I have made, taking notes and writing down observations, I have seen that these batches have had an average water loss of about 3.5%-4%. So that raised the question about actually adding that 3.5%-4% to the calculated amount. So 36% actually becomes 40% H2O in the formula and if I follow the same production procedures in every batch, I should have a more liquid product and will be easier to homogenize without having to add more water when adding fragrance etc. in the final production stage!
These old shaving cream formulas exhibit a certain amount of “instability” adn can vary from batch to batch anyway and the most minor adjustments can make a difference in how a formula comes out. Finding a balance is the key!
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Well actually, Belassi I can! LOL! I actually figured it out with the numbers plugged into Excel but Excel and I aren’t exactly best friends! I think I need counseling to learn to get along with Excel! I set up a ratio with the total of the numbers without the water which worked out to 53.8 with the full water amount and 63.8 with the 10% reduction!
Here are the numbers anyway!
INGREDIENT % Amt. In Batch Stearic Acid 20.400 24.19 Myristic Acid 10.200 12.09 Coconut Fatty
Acids5.800 6.87 NaOH 0.350 0.42 KOH 6.800 8.06 Triethanolamine 0.950 1.13 H2O 46.200 36.20 PEG-400 5.400 6.40 SLS 2.700 3.20 Menthol 0.200 0.24 fragrance 1.000 1.19 It does help to have another formula to compare to as this is similar to a couple that I already have! I’m just concerned about dropping the oil phase this much but all I have to do it write another formula and try another batch to find out! Thanks!
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So I decided to take this Flick formulation and try and calculate the rest of the ingredients with the 10% of the “water loss” removed to figure out what the actual ingredients percentages of each ingredients are. I downloaded Perry’s Excel Formula Template and entered all the numbers then tried to recalculate the rest of the formula ingredients in their actual higher percentages but I seem to not understand the relationship:
Flick Formula:
Shaving CreamOil Phase: 36.4% OILS
20.40% Stearic Acid
10.20% Myristic Acid
5.80% Coconut
Fatty AcidWater Phase: 46.2% H2O
0.35% NaOH
6.8% KOH
.95% Triethanolamine
46.2% H2O
5.4% PEG-400
– glycerin sub?2.7% SLS
.20 Menthol
1.00% fragrance
100%
10% water loss
After calculating each ingredient to be 10% higher and lowering the H2O from 46.2 to 36.2 I am coming up with over 105% for my formula! What am I doing wrong?
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In going over my notes again this evening, I saw this answer to my above Tea Stearate question, from the late Maurice Hevey. I’ll quote my own notes from 2004:
“I posted about TEA on the Cosmetics board that I
joined a few days ago to try to find out the range in which TEA Stearate is used
in a product. Maurice’s answer was “as
little as is needed” which didn’t exactly give me the answer I was hoping for.“What I didn’t realize at the time was that his answer was exactly what I needed to hear but unfortunately I didn’t understand what he was saying so I couldn’t understand the impact on my formula. In this instance, if I had followed what he said and used only the 1% that I had seen in a few formulas and I had been using, I wouldn’t have made the mistake of upping the percentage a few times over the years and I would have been able to make it one of things in the formula who’s percentage doesn’t change! Sometimes we listen but we don’t always hear!
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So I decided that the best thing for me to do was to set up my last five batches on my big stainless steel table in my workroom which is in the back of our building that holds our retail store. I took notes, wrote down my observations of what they looked like, felt like and behaved and weighed every batch. I also listed the differences in the formulas which made it easier to come up with ideas of what was happening. I homogenized the very last batch I made which was quite “stiff” and added the water but it still remained quite stiff! In looking at my formulas I found that I had upped the TEA from 0.5% to 1.0% because I had read that it helped to make “creamier” lather. What they didn’t say was it could make the cream “stiffer”. I noted that in other past batches they same thing happened and they had the 1.0% rather than in 0.5%! Bingo! The light went on! So it seems that is one of the problems. Also, this last batch I did in “phases” by adding small amounts of the
water/lye solution and stirring in between. It made a much smoother
product even though it was still too stiff!The other issue is “superfatting” as they refer to it now. One batch, the picture of which I posted, came out very well but turned out to have a “zero superfat” because of some math errors which I finally figured out last weekend. I had read that “superfatting” actually helped the soap-based cream be more smooth and pearlescent but this batch seemed fine in those respects so I need to figure that out then also decide if I need to lower the oil phase slightly again and the lye as well so that I can up the water percentage! It’s been a great deal of work but I now seem to be getting somewhere!
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Thanks Belassi! I saw reference to some of that actually here on a post a while ago which was why I was interested but I haven’t read it yet. I am really looking for older formulas for this very specific type of product so that pretty much means I would be looking in books from the 1930’s, 40’s and possibly the 50’s and 60’s. More often than not they are in Cosmetic Chemistry books rather than soap making books and contain the very limited list of ingredients that I posted earlier.
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Well, I’m not there yet! I have done some experimental batches but still come up with a product that is too firm and stiff! I have been doing a ton of research and did find a few more formulas but only a couple with Stearic, Myristic and Coconut Fatty Acids! Formulas with Myristic Acid are very difficult to find even though it is a standard for all the “British Shaving Creams” that are available. I took a Flick formula that was done in two stages and included SLS and rewrote it as a one stage formula:
Flick Formula:
Shaving CreamOil Phase: 36.4% OILS
20.40% Stearic Acid
10.20% Myristic Acid
5.80% Coconut
Fatty AcidWater Phase: 46.2% H2O
0.35% NaOH
6.8% KOH
.95% Triethanolamine
46.2% H2O
5.4% PEG-400
– glycerin sub?2.7% SLS
.20 Menthol
1.00% fragrance
100%
10% water loss
The numbers aren’t too bad, the Stearic is a bit lower than I usually see but what is odd is that they account for “10% water loss” which I have never seen before and if I compare the oil and water amounts minus the “10% water loss” then they are about equal which is what I have seen suggested in many books. Oh, Harry’s Cosmeticology, 7th Edition - Shaving Preparations… where are you? Still looking for that…
Any suggestions or observations?
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Thanks Belassi!
I tried a batch with 8% glycerin to see how much it differs figuring what when I homogenize on the second day I have the choice of either adding back the evaporated water (which is usually somewhere around 2%) or I could add glycerin instead to bring it up to 10% if that’s what it needs! It doesn’t seem that much different but it takes time for this kind of formula to reach a smooth, pearlescent state.The main point, though, is that I am pretty much where I need to be with this formula, which is great! Thanks again to everyone who offered advice and assistance! I’m going to try some new scents with these new batches of the new formulation then go back and redo the best selling ones out of the rest of the fragrances I offer! Hopefully the reception will be good! This is an amazingly tough crowd to deal with! Wish me luck!
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It’s been an interesting week with lots more research, analyzing as many
formulas as I could find and notating the differences! I upped my
water percentage, lowered my oil phase and got more accurate numbers on
my lye calculations, added a larger percentage of glycerin and wrote out four formulas accordingly. It was much easier to see the differences and
understand where I needed to go with this project after looking at all four formulas and I selected one and made it this afternoon.The
saponification of an oil phase that’s mostly fatty acids occurs very
quickly even with a larger water phase. This type of formulation is one
where a gooey paste forms very quickly and doesn’t benefit from using a
mixer in the initial stage. In 24 hours or less the consistency will
become looser and will benefit from homogenization which includes the
evaporated water, the preservative and the fragrance. If let to sit for
a while, pearlescence will increase and even if it is put into the
packaging at this point, it will occur there.Here is a photo of the batch I talked about doing the other week on the 15th!
I am hoping that the batch I did today will come out as well as this one did!
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Stayed up too late last evening when I discovered some things I needed to look into! The one test batch I had made had some incorrect numbers in the formula and it turned out to have 0% lye discount! That’s why it was so pasty! I decided to go though several of the most important formulas I had collected and put them all though a Lye Calculator from the Soap Guild (of which I am a member - I just paid my dues for another year today!) and was able to recheck all of the SAP values for the formulas but also the ratio of KOH to NaOH which proved to be quite interesting! Today I decided to write up several formulas for potential changes in the ingredients percentages and I then ran them all through the Lye Calculator and was able to better see the relationships between each phase and the percentages of each which made it much easier to compare! As a result, I was able to narrow it down to two formulas which I think will work better. The oil phase was definitely too high, Mark, and I adjusted all of them, recalculated the lye amounts which also proved to be quite interesting and then was able to clearly see the relationship between the oils, the lye and the water! The glycerin turned out to be something that I can adjust as it is part of the water phase but not as essential as the other aspects of the formula but I do know what it can do to help and will deal with it when the time comes. One thing I found interesting was the resultant lye percentages! Such a tiny difference in the NaOH percentages from 0% to 10%!
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) 16.66%
Discount NaOH Water
0 % 1.100 oz 2.2 oz (range: 1.1 to 3.3 oz)
1 % 1.089 oz 2.2 oz (range: 1.1 to 3.3 oz)
2 % 1.078 oz 2.2 oz (range: 1.1 to 3.2 oz)
3 % 1.067 oz 2.1 oz (range: 1.1 to 3.2 oz)
4 % 1.056 oz 2.1 oz (range: 1.1 to 3.2 oz)
5 % 1.045 oz 2.1 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.1 oz)
6 % 1.034 oz 2.1 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.1 oz)
7 % 1.023 oz 2.0 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.1 oz)
8 % 1.012 oz 2.0 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.0 oz)
9 % 1.001 oz 2.0 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.0 oz)
10 % 0.990 oz 2.0 oz (range: 1.0 to 3.0 oz)
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) 83.34%
Discount KOH Water
0 % 7.532 oz 15.1 oz (range: 7.5 to 22.6 oz)
1 % 7.456 oz 14.9 oz (range: 7.5 to 22.4 oz)
2 % 7.381 oz 14.8 oz (range: 7.4 to 22.1 oz)
3 % 7.306 oz 14.6 oz (range: 7.3 to 21.9 oz)
4 % 7.230 oz 14.5 oz (range: 7.2 to 21.7 oz)
5 % 7.155 oz 14.3 oz (range: 7.2 to 21.5 oz)
6 % 7.080 oz 14.2 oz (range: 7.1 to 21.2 oz)
7 % 7.004 oz 14.0 oz (range: 7.0 to 21.0 oz)
8 % 6.929 oz 13.9 oz (range: 6.9 to 20.8 oz)
9 % 6.854 oz 13.7 oz (range: 6.9 to 20.6 oz)
10 % 6.778 oz 13.6 oz (range: 6.8 to 20.3 oz)
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Mark, I just did a check on one formula I hadn’t rechecked with the others and I know see what’s happening! I think you’re right about there being an imbalance of phases! I’ve played with these numbers so many times… I’ll check it out more thoroughly tomorrow but I think I’m getting even closer!
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Mark,
I fully understand what you are saying but this is a public forum and accessible by anyone and everyone. I’ve been coming to boards like this since 1998 and never posted a formula of mine publicly. I realize that I am not going to get more specific answers but am really looking for general knowledge and information that will allow me to decide whether it is worth going down one of the alleys I mentioned.
I follow typical Cosmetic Chemistry procedures and heat my oil phase to 160 degrees, add my bases to my water and measure the temp of both phases until they are both at 160 degrees F then add my water phase to my oil phase and homogenize until the emulsion forms. But since this is a soap based formula, a gooey paste forms soon into the procedure and water separates out and has to be stirred in until a solid paste forms with no water. Evaporation occurs during this part of the phase and continues after even though the paste is then placed under a lid. That water from that evaporation must be replaced and re-homogenized so that each batch is consistent and it is better to take care of it when the batch had cooled to the proper temperatures for your preservative and it is always better to put your fragrances in at that time as well.
I am totally aware that fatty acids do not have glycerin and that I would have to add more to my formula to make that change and that’s not an issue with me. Finding Coconut Fatty Acids at a good price is!
I’m happy with the relationship between my three oil phase ingredients and the glycerin has certainly helped with the pastiness but I am thinking about the possibility of increasing the water phase. The only other issue would be increasing the unsaponified oil percentage. Several formulas I ran through the SAP calculators today seemed to be in the 3-4% yet others were at 10% and one was actually at 0%! I saw mention in one book about making the formula with some unsaponified ingredients would allow the Stearic Acid to make it more liquid. I wanted to see if that was the case.
Thanks Mark for your input and answers, thank to everyone for reading through my long-winded responses
and I’d be happy to hear from anyone with their observations! -
Mark,
Thanks for your input! I know I put out many questions but sometimes that helps to put things into perspective for me! I needed more ‘cushion and glide’ and more ‘liquidity’ to the formula and better “homogenization” to the formula. One of the questions was which set of ingredients or single ingredient needed to be changed or the ratios of all the ingredients need to be in better balance. Another was whether I needed to adjust my manufacturing techniques. Yet another was whether I needed to try doing this in phases. Then there is the unsaponified percentage and whether the amount should be higher or lower to create a more “liquid” end result. Yes, these are many questions for a formula that contains only 11 ingredients but if the balance isn’t just right then it isn’t going to give the best results!
I hand stir the batch when the water phase is poured into the heated oil and stir constantly for up to 10 minutes so that all the water is absorbed and consistent in texture. Then cover and wait 24 hours to homogenize. Evaporation takes place inside the covered plastic bucket and the water clings to the upper part of the bucket and the lid and that is when weigh then I add the percentage H2O that has evaporated as well as preservative and the fragrance. That is why it is done at that time.
So far:
A. I think I need to mix the batch with a hand mixer from the beginning.
B. I tried a batch with 10% glycerin and what a big difference it made in the consistency and the texture! (need to shave with it next!) (I may not need that much but I will see in time!)
I went through six formulas that I had collected but I hadn’t analyzed them or put them though a lye calculator but now I decided it was time! 2 were mine and the rest sample formulations from books - I posted one above. I found some similarities and some dissimilarities between them all but it did help and I am still unsure exactly where I am going with this but at least have eliminated some of my own questions and I am closer to where I need to be!