[Camel]

Update:

I made some adjustments to the formula and was finally able to create a thick gel that does not spill when the jar is flipped upside down!

• Water - 93%
• Glycerin - 2%
• PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil - 2%
• Polyvinylpyrrolidone - 1%
• Sodium Carbomer - 1%
• Fragrance - 0.5%
• Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate - 0.5%

I will continue to play around with this formula but I am happy with these results.

[Camel]

chemicalmatt said:

@Camel Understood there, you are not purchasing commercial quantities yet. Camel is using it here to style the hair and he/she is using too much of it too. 1.00% PVP K-90 is plenty enough to do the job. Camel should reduce the PEG-40HCO and fragrance way down also. This gel as written will have your hair standing straight up and smelling from a city block away.

Correct, I only purchase from re-packers and make these products as a hobby/for personal use. The seller said the typical use of PVP in a hair gel is 4-7% so I assumed 3% was modest. ???? I’ll take your advice and try cutting down the PVP, PEG-40 HCO, and fragrance and see what results I get!

Thank you!

[Camel]

sean9980 said:

If you haven’t neutralized it, that could be the problem as you dont really get much viscosity if its isnt.

Sodium Carbomer is a pre-neutralized carbomer, so it does not require neutralization for gelling (according to the seller, at least).

Urbanxt said:

Polyvinylpyrrolidone may not be compatible with carbomer based ingredients. It’s generally used as an antiseptic so I imagine that it’s ph may be different to carbomer. Is it actually needed. If so, look for a replacement alternative then try that. Carbomer based ingredients are extremely PH sensitive and they will not gel in a non conducive environment. You have an ingredient that disrupts carbomer function for thickening and I’m guessing it’s Polyvinylpyrrolidone. 

I have seen many commercial hair gels use both PVP and carbomer, including the one I am “copying.”

Here is the INCI for the product I am looking at:

Water, Carbomer, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, PVP, Glycerin, Triethanolamine, Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate, Polysorbate 20, Tetrasodium EDTA, Fragrance

chemicalmatt said:

@Camel not all carbomers are the same. (Perhaps I’ll run a seminar on that some day?) Use Polygel HG from 3V Sigma USA and neutralize with AMP-95 at a ratio of 0.80 to 1.00 Polygel. At 0.50% you should obtain 50,000 mPas, at 1.00% you will get closer to 100,000 mPas. Turn that jar upside down and jiggle: nothing comes out. The bonus: that material will cost you half as much as Lubrizol stuff. Better results at half the price, can’t beat that. Using TEA is good too, as Perry suggests, but just be sure to use 99% not 85%. The latter has 10% DEA in it; not wanted or allowed in California.

Thank you for your insight. I am only able to purchase from resellers. I don’t see this ingredient available, but I will continue to research it!

Thank you to everyone else who responded, I will take all your comments into consideration!

[Camel]

@Perry I was under the impression that PEG-40 HCO worked as a thickener as well as a solubilizer. Is this not true? 

I haven’t tried a standard carbomer yet, I was hoping to avoid neutralization. ???? I guess that will be my next purchase!

Thank you. 

[Camel]

Any suggestions, please? Thanks in advance!

[Camel]

I have added up to 2% of arrowroot powder to my heated oil phase before combining with water and it has never turned out grainy. Give it a try! 

[Camel]

I agree with @Syl. I don’t believe there is such a thing as a true “fat burning” gel; it’s just marketing. And such high amounts of eucalyptus and menthol sound like they would cause some serious discomfort and irritation.

I would reduce menthol to 2% and eucalyptus to 1% max. 

[Camel]

Karo_lina said:

I get cream with nice after feel but I’m wondering if i can add something extra to make the skin feel hydrated after wash it.

Maybe adding caprylic/capric triglyceride could help with hydration/moisture retention. Consider replacing half of your glycerin with it, or a bit of your olive oil. 

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

1. 1-4% means you can use whatever amount you like in this range. 
I like 1% because my hair is oily and heavy. You may like more. 

2. It may be true. But does more mean better?
Not always.

3. Yes you can

@Camel that is a very good chart. Can you share the source. 

pH of Shampoo

pH of Conditioners

pH of Leave-In Conditioners & Styling Aids

[Camel]

Hi Amira,

I will try to answer your questions, but I am not an expert, so I may be wrong:

1. I believe it would cause build-up, which is why we generally do not use our regular conditioners as leave-in conditioners.

2. I think that leave-in conditioners should typically adhere to a lower pH as they stay in your hair for a long time before being rinsed off, but when comparing some of the top brands of conditioners/leave-ins, it doesn’t appear there is much of a difference. Attached below are two charts displaying these comparisons. 

3. Yes, you can use amodimethicone at pH 6. Here is an excerpt from @Perry’s haircare brand, pHIQUE, “amodimethicone works kind of like a quat such as PQ-10. It doesn’t have a charge, but when used at a pH less than 7 (typically shampoos are around 6), it has a positive charge and an affinity to the damaged parts of the hair. Having several ingredients like this make sure that they fill the voids in the hair, making it smooth and easier to comb.”

[Camel]

@JonahRay I just took a look at CeraVe products that contain SA. They make no claims about acne and aren’t labeled as an OTC, but they also don’t share what % of SA is in the product. 

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help with this! 

[Camel]

Hi Jonah,

It is my understanding that using Salicylic Acid in concentrations of 0.5 - 2% is classified as an OTC drug in the United States, regardless of the product’s marketing. I believe it is only acceptable in cosmetics when included as part of a preservation system.

You may consider using White Willow Bark extract/powder instead, although you will have to research its efficacy.

I am not an expert and could very well be wrong.

[Camel]

PhilGeis said:

Can’t use sal acid on kids under 3 per EU cosm. directive.
If you use an organic acid, make is benzoic (as Na salt).
I’d put phenoxyethanol behind isothiazolinones and DMM hydantoin.
Add a chelant - esp. EDTA.

Thank you; I definitely won’t use the preservative with sal acid for this product. For the chelant, I have Sodium Gluconate on hand, would that be a suitable alternative at 1%? I see it being used by Pipette Baby products as well, which gives me some hope. 

[Camel]

ketchito said:

@Camel If you’ll use this product in children 2y+, I’d advise you to follow something similar as what J&J does for their baby/kids products. They constantly conduct efficacy and safety tests, so that would be a good formulation model (especially if “no tears” is something desirable, where the use of PEG-80 sorbitan laurate, sulfosuccinates and sultaines can be beneficial). 

Proteins can actually help in reducing irritation from anionic surfactants by forming complexes with them; the challenge being the microbiological issue with proteins, so it’s worthy to try them only if you can spend some money on microbiological testing.

I would love to conduct efficacy and safety tests, although I am not sure I would be able to do that on my own. I only make these products as gifts for friends and family, and I’ve never made one for babies before, but I wanted to make something for my two year old godson. Would you advise against this if I can’t conduct proper testing?

As for the protein, I’m not sure I completely understand what you mean, sorry. Are you saying it is harder to preserve them? The label on my protein says it is already preserved with Leucidal liquid. Would it still be a problem to use it without microbiological testing?

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

Camel said:

Abdullah said:

Thank you for replying.

Would there be any reason to keep Decyl Glucoside at 1% vs. eliminating it from the formula? Should I replace it with a different surfactant?
Because decyl Glucoside is not a good surfactant. 

Use some SLES.

Also, any reason why you suggest removing the protein? I read from the supplier that it was especially great for hair, but maybe I just fell for the marketing. 
it doesn’t have much benefit in shampoo. 

If it is beneficial, apply it to your hair after shampoo.

I would suggest if you use a premade blend of surfactant. That would work better.

I will look into those preservatives. I appreciate your help. 

Thanks again!

I don’t currently have SLES, although I could try to purchase it. Do you think SCI and Shea Butteramidopropyl Betaine would be good enough?
i did purchase some sci but didn’t work with it. They say it is hard to dissolve.
use CAPB. I have use shea betaine.
I’ll take your advice on removing the protein, PEG and Vitamin E as well. 

As for the preservative, I have a blend of Phenoxyethanol and Ethylhexylglycerin readily available. Is that a safe choice for this product?
yes. Good for shampoo. Although it will reduce the viscosity.

What I do to dissolve SCI is first mix it with the Shea Betaine to form a paste, and then dissolve the paste in heated water phase. Haven’t had any problems doing it like that yet!

Thanks for all of your advice. 

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

Thank you for replying.

Would there be any reason to keep Decyl Glucoside at 1% vs. eliminating it from the formula? Should I replace it with a different surfactant?
Because decyl Glucoside is not a good surfactant. 

Use some SLES.

Also, any reason why you suggest removing the protein? I read from the supplier that it was especially great for hair, but maybe I just fell for the marketing. 
it doesn’t have much benefit in shampoo. 

If it is beneficial, apply it to your hair after shampoo.

I would suggest if you use a premade blend of surfactant. That would work better.

I will look into those preservatives. I appreciate your help. 

Thanks again!

I don’t currently have SLES, although I could try to purchase it. Do you think SCI and Shea Butteramidopropyl Betaine would be good enough?

I’ll take your advice on removing the protein, PEG and Vitamin E as well. 

As for the preservative, I have a blend of Phenoxyethanol and Ethylhexylglycerin readily available. Is that a safe choice for this product?

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

I would say remove decyl Glucoside or reduce it to 1% 

Remove PEG, protein and vitamin e 

Add 0.2% EDTA 

Suggest DMDM hydantoin or phenoxyethanol with sodium benzoate as preservative. 

I don’t like benzyl alcohol. 

Thank you for replying.

Would there be any reason to keep Decyl Glucoside at 1% vs. eliminating it from the formula? Should I replace it with a different surfactant?

Also, any reason why you suggest removing the protein? I read from the supplier that it was especially great for hair, but maybe I just fell for the marketing. 

I will look into those preservatives. I appreciate your help.