[Cafe33]

If you can get some Natrasil, that would be a nice product for you to test. 

[Cafe33]

Okay, so it is not all that effective as a soothing agent? So by comparison, would aloe vera be a better choice in the water phase or would I simply not notice any effect in your opinion?

[Cafe33]

Thank you, I meant to ask if allantoin with have a noticeable effect under 0.5%, effectively can I use less in my formulation ? 

[Cafe33]

Thank you again for your help. 

Can allantoin be added easily to this formula at 0.5%? I have never used this ingredient and I am about to order it. Is 0.5% the absolute minimum usage rate? 

[Cafe33]

Thanks for the reply.

I manufacture a conditioning hair mask based on BTMS-25 and people love the consistency and it has been a success. I am trying to use ingredients I already stock, however I would be more than happy to do away with the BTMS as it is expensive. I am limited in terms of what I can buy in Mexico in low kilogram amounts.

Do you think that Glyceryl Stearate SE would be a good choice as the primary emulsifier? I have tried Lanette N and Polawax and it was unsatisfactory.    

[Cafe33]

I produce a charcoal face wash product and I use Rosemary essential oil in the product. It also acts as a good claim ingredient in terms of being good for oily skin. I found that I needed to use a larger amount than initially thought. I am talking about 0.5% EO to 0.25% activated carbon. 

As far as your ideas for a long lasting perfume, typically and especially when it comes to a rinse off product, you are looking at log P values - the higher the better. It’s water solubility basically determines how it is likely to be rinsed off down the drain or by contrast stick and bind to your skin. 

So in my opinion, your idea of a water soluble perfume is actually the exact opposite of what you need!  

thegoodscentscompany.com

They provide a good database for many scent ingredients.

Here’s a profile for one of my favorite scents, ethylene brassylate.

ethylene brassylate, 105-95-3 (thegoodscentscompany.com)

The log P is very high. If you scroll down you will see that they also measure substantively 

Odor Strength:medium

Substantivity:208 hour(s) at 100.00 %

 
You also have to consider volatility. Most profiles include vapor pressure info although musks like ethylene brassylate do not have that info included. 

I order many fine fragrances (50g lots) and the ones I like I ask for a compositional breakdown. I then map out each chemicals and its properties in excel of course.     

[Cafe33]

Quite a list of essential oils… It also includes fragrance. Isn’t this highly unusual for a facial product? Are they simply adding trace amounts like 0.01% and under of every EO?

[Cafe33]

I use Tinogard TT by BASF for use to conserve the scent of my fragrance. It has worked particularly well, better than expected. I also use Tinogard TL as an antioxidant. Not sure how these fit in the “natural” story line.  

[Cafe33]

You can play with some ingredients and formulations leaving some things out like preservatives. It allowed me to learn quite a bit about different ingredients.  It will be limited as far as figuring out your final formula as you put it. Things can change drastically with one ingredient change especially viscosity. I found knockout experiments much more useful in figuring out final formulations.

[Cafe33]

I guess the best way would be a reflux setup with overhead stirring and cooling condensers. I have to mirror the 10% loss figures, I get the same thing.   

[Cafe33]

Which silicon dioxide did you?

[Cafe33]

Hi, what is it that you are trying to do again? There are patents on using Silicon Dioxide as part of a perfume encapsulation system. Usually something like like 2-5% of the total system is used with the perfume consisting of 30% or so. 

My experience: 

Cafe33 said:

Yes colloidal silicon dioxide will absorb oil fairly efficiently from my experience. My first test was to place some peppermint oil onto some Aerosil. I think I used something like 1g of Oil to 0.5g of Aerosil. It absorbed it fully and remained in solid state, powder was still “flowable”. I left it in an open beakers for weeks, even well past a month and the smell was just as strong as day 1 (IMO). Keep in mind that it was Summer months, and the room Temp could climb to 30-31C.

That is what I can offer. As for leave on skin products concerning abrasion, I do not know. My experience relates to oral use and rinse off hair products. I did make some oil gels using Aerosil with almond, Jojoba and natrasil oils if I remember, and there is some documentation through Evoniks that details percentages to use and viscosity of different oils. Maybe you can look into it by contacting Evoniks?  

As for the rinse off products, 45-50% Aerosil use according to fragrance was definitely impressive. I think your testing range should be 10-50% based on the fragrance.   

[Cafe33]

Decyl Glucoside works fairly well for “safe/natural whatever labeling”. I was actually kind of surprised on how well it cleans up stains and grease. As far as cost effective, I don’t think that is the case. 

I make a very high performance surface and disinfectant cleaner and honestly I don’t exactly have much experience. I use a combination of Borax and Ethoxylated Lauryl alcohol 9M. Lysol uses the same surfactant but the 3M version. 

The pH of my formulation is somewhere around 9.5. Although I haven’t tested it on Marble and granite, it seems to be fine on all other surfaces. 

Just read as many spec sheets as you can and you will see what the big companies are using.

[Cafe33]

This is an answer that I am also after. Purell has a foaming hand sanitizer with 0.13% BZK and Decyl Glucoside. It also contains Parabens 

[Cafe33]

Caframo is a good cost effective solution. Not sure if it is available in your area. I was able to source used machines, around 5 of them through LabX, a couple of years ago. 

I find IKA slightly overpriced for the specs many stirrers provide. I really have a strong preference for Heidolph. The Hei-torque series is absolutely incredible.

[Cafe33]

Thank you for the continued discussion. I think I will lower the pH of my hand soap to 6.00-6.50 and then send it out for testing. 

HAL49, it most definitely precipitates out of solution when in the 0.5% range. It starts out cloudy and then a smaller layer will settle at the bottom over 24 hours or so. Addition of KOH makes it clear again as well as adding EtOH as solubilizer. I discovered this while formulating a regular disinfectant, not the hand soap.  

About the “tiempo de contacto”… This is what I thought but I have some people advising me in Spanish who are suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect. They swore up and down that it is a different term in Spanish. I have finally found some proper help. 

[Cafe33]

I wanted to add that Cedrosa is a good option for many hard to find items. They have Sodium Stearate in kg quanties for example. They have salts like Magnesium Oxide, Silicon Dioxide (81 pesos per kg). They also have many gums and a long list of oils. 

[Cafe33]

Thanks letsalcido. 

So how does pH affect the dissociation of BAC in water? And if dissociation is associated to it’s microbial properties, this would be an important detail. 

HAL49, yes I have considered that in fact regular soap and water with 20 sec rubbing time is antibacterial… so perhaps BAC is only a claim ingredient. Either way, we use the 10 or different formulations I have made at home to wash our hands. It would be great to test these claims. 

We will be reaching out to COFEPRIS in a matter of a few weeks, however I heard that their offices were closed during the pandemic. Perhaps, they have re opened. Hell, they just re opened the Casinos here! Yet, the corona virus brigade goes around bothering families at the beaches indicating them to disperse. 

We do have a contact for a consultant but I am open to anyone who understands the Mexican landscape of compliance. Not sure if the antibacterial claim is a drug claim in Mexico. I see many companies making acne and anti microbial claims, and some even sold at Sephora here. 

PS: What is the technical term “Contact Time” in Spanish? Does it even exist, it is driving me crazy!

[Cafe33]

Masterflex peristaltic pumps with the appropriate compatible tubing for the material you will be pumping. The liquid never gets into the pump. The specialty tubing can be expensive especially in the larger diameters but the pumps can be found used. 

[Cafe33]

natiyo123 said:

also , every once in a while you can find good stuff in mercado libre 

There is an excellent vendor on Mercado libre. He also operates by whatsapp where his prices are much lower. I use him mainly for herbal and plant materials. His essential oils are great, some much better than cosmotienda’s. 

I think he goes by Abreiko. 

[Cafe33]

I will try HEC, I have 23 kg bags coming. Thanks. I made a 5% BAC solution (with 1% EDTA 4Na). The pH was somewhere around 10.50. It worked perfectly well with no issues.

My idea was then to manufacture a 0.5% concentration using that initial 5% solution.  I noticed it feel out of solution/became cloudy at around the 0.5% concentration. The pH was still high because of the EDTA.  I was able to get it back in solution using small amounts of KOH. Alcohol also worked at around 4% w/w.  I then created a fresh 0.5% solution with no EDTA and had the same issue of not being soluble in water - measured pH was 7.00.

I don’t really know whether being soluble or not would affect microbial activity. I would assume that it has to have an effect on activity if it is not in solution. It definitely needs to be formulated at an alkaline pH. Maybe pH 7.4 is not enough? 

[Cafe33]

letsalcido, yes I will be sending the soap for testing. I rushed into these formulations with BAC so I am not completely confident yet, I am still in the development stage. Will 0.10% BAC be a sufficient preservative for this system?  Is a pH of 7.40 sufficiently high ? 

I am currently manufacturing spray sanitizers with a combination of BAC, Alcohol and EDTA 4Na as well as a multipurpose cleaner similar to concentrated Lysol. They will all be tested since we are aiming for compliance with the governing body here. 

There are small villages where coronavirus has exploded, we are giving out bottles of our products as they hardly have anything to clean with. 

Yes Belassi, I figure you had forgotten about that initial detail. 

Also, I tried thickening further with 0.5% NaCl as suggested by the Lubrizol documentation - no result 

[Cafe33]

I am using Decyl Glucoside because it is non-ionic. I was under the impression that ALS is not compatible with benzalkonium chloride. Thats why I also left the pH closer to slightly alkaline for the benzalkonium. Is that an improper idea? 

[Cafe33]

Distilled water. 40 % is the amount I used alongside the carbopol. The rest of the water was used to total 100% 

[Cafe33]

Revised formula, using Cocamide DEA to neutralize carbopol. Final pH 7.30-7.40

In order of addition:

2% Carbopol Aqua SF1
40% dH20

9% Decyl Glucoside
3% Cocamide DEA
15 % CAPB (30% active)

0.15% EDTA 4 Na
1.8% Polyquat 7
0.10% BAC
0.10 % Fragrance (Lemon grass EO)
Trace color (unmeasured)

Fairly expensive to manufacture (~1.10 USD per kg) but the product is good. Main aim was to use as little carbopol as possible. Would love to hear any comments or suggestions.