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Are you open to changing your surfactant system? 

Also, Polyquat-39 can be an impressive addition in my experience. 

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I am using 10% Propylene Glycol and 20% Ethoxydiglycol 

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BTMS-25 is one of the main ingredients I use and yes its normal to be too thick to mix using typical mixing especially when combined with GMS. It will also achieve its close to final viscosity fairly quickly. I use an Anchor style paddle for mixing. As an emulsifier, I found it to be immensely stable, I have never had a sample separate even with poor mixing technique. 

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Hi @MarkBroussard, HMW Hyaluronic Acid was used at 0.20 and 0.25% and it was not sufficient. I also used Xanthan gum + HA and it was a little stickier than I wanted. Drunk Elephant uses HEC + Xanthan + HA and both versions I created with the same system thicken well and are much more pleasant and less sticky. 

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chemicalmatt said:

 You say 10% AHA? Good luck with that.

Not a comfortable feeling when @chemicalmatt says Good luck with that. It seems to be a success so far but no stability testing has taken place yet. Can you please elaborate? Do you think there will be a pH shift that needs to be addressed? And if so, in which direction ? I am using Geogard Ultra + Sodium Citrate + Phenoxyethanol as my perservation system. 

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Have you thought about using a solid surfactant without the addition of water?

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A solid bar with 2% Dimethicone? I do not think that is enough to be effective. I can offer some perspective as I have tried to formulate dimethicone into a solid conditioner bar and it made it highly unstable, weak and soft. I don’t remember the input I used but it was double digits 10% or so (Includes a high percentage of BTMS and cetyl alcohol )

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BTMS is very forgiving as an emulsifier. You can use sub par mixing and process and it will most likely still remain stable. It also has application for skin. It is the perfect product for repackers to sell. 

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Thank you so much for your input. 

Just from some research I noted that formulas seem to be sold for $1000 and upwards of $25,000. I also asked the client what her budget was and that helped me assess how much I could charge. The two formulas I sold are not terribly difficult for me to do.

I had also quoted her for a more challenging curl amplifier (Fixative gel/ conditioning cream combo) for $6500. I also gave her the option of private filling this item which is what she chose to do instead of owning the IP. I developed it essentially for free but I was able to get her continuous feedback (successful salon owner with multiple locations) which was invaluable. 

Initially, pricing my private label products was based on ingredients costs and done in a fairly linear way across the entire product line. However during my first quote and sale of a facial cream, I realized that once packaged, the client could easily 20X his investment. So I double the price I had originally came up with based on “straight math”. Client was very happy. I understand now why makingcosmetics tries to sell base creams for $50 for 900grams.

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Why don’t you start by reading info by Lubrizol some of which you can find online quite easily? 

Ultrez polymers are more easily neutralized and can be done so at an acidic pH whereas Carbomer needs to be closer to neutral. That’s a nice tip I wish I knew before I started researching. 

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Biophysics is fairly close to chemistry. You have the science prerequisites and a capacity to learn. Combined with scientific curiosity, trials and errors, drive and work ethic you can definitely call yourself a cosmetic chemist.  

You may be more of a chemist than some of these chemistry graduates I went to school with. I will never forget one guy who graduated in chemistry at McGill Univ. (A more prestigious school that I attended) and after a year or so I think it was like he had never even seen an empirical formula. I think he would have struggled to describe ionic vs convalent bonds.

He settled on a horrible job at Merck calibrating scales all day long. He could not care less about chemistry. And the schooling system is filled with these professional student who are able to get passing grades by force feeding course material and just regurgitating it on a test paper. Once they walk out of the test, they remember nothing. Unfortunately for them, organic chemistry tests don’t work that way. 

Anyway, I digress. 

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I have seen this with any behentrimonium compound. I just got quote with a ridiculously high price and a continual push to try a new alternative. 

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When I was having fun with encapsulation a few years ago, I bought a small coffee/spice grinder and drilled a small hole into top of the plastic removable cap. I was able to encapsulate orange essential oil. Carbopol 940 was the material that worked best and I dripped a very specific amount of water (or ethanol, I can’t remember) into the hole I created all while mixing. The granules smelled very strongly and retained the odor for well over a year. To this day it still has a fairly strong smell going on 2 years. 

The ones I created with PVP did not last as long, only a couple of weeks. Again, it was only experimental and only for scents not actives. 

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I am imagining forming a w/o emulsion using an HA and Sodium Lactate aqueous solution into a balm mixture which includes candelilla wax, cetyl alcohol, esters and oils among other things. I am hoping the Olivem 2090 will allow me to do so. Formulator sample shop carries the ingredient so I will order it soon; however as an international customer, I will have to be patient.  

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I am attempting a similar formulation blending HA in a solid balm like wax. I have stumbled on Olivem 2090 and will be attempting a W/O. Maybe that is something you can look into. 

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Well, anything under 1% in the formula can be placed in any order. There are a few suspect things beyond the aloe vera juice being placed first. Some companies I noticed believe they can dilute a juice or extract with water and still place it as the first ingredient.

The INCI for emulsifying wax is Cetearyl Alcohol and Polysorbate 60. You would have to believe that anything after water would be under 1%. It does have C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer so it is possible but it would be quite a thin cream, more like a gel. I also wonder which ingredient is neutralizing the polymer? 

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I am developing a “curl amplifier” for a client. A fixative gel and cream which combines different types of polymers with silicones in an o/w emulsion. D5 seems to be high in the ingredient list with all the benchmarks I was provided.

So far I was told that my formulation “dries” in the proper time.   

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It was suggested by a supplier to try coconut alkanes as a “natural” substitute for cyclopentasiloxane. Naturally I am quite skeptical. Any opinions or experiences ?

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Is anyone having issues sourcing this recently ? The two suppliers I have here in Mexico no longer have it. 

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Lactic acid is usually what I have seen used with BTMS

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What finished product are you speaking about? Whipped butters?

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It is challenging since I am trying to apply it to Syndet bars. I am attempting to scale my process and also acquire an extruder. 

Previously I was not adding any free water. Currently, I am testing a water level of 0.3-0.5%, I prefer not to go higher. I do start by heating water with the EDTA. I then add NaCl followed by Sodium Lactate and CAPB. Those are the principal components of my water phase. 

I have noticed that Dove bars use 2 forms of EDTA, the pH of my bars is similar to Dove’s

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Abdullah said:

PhilGeis said:

Abdullah said:

@ozgirl no i didn’t read the MSDS of formalin because our local suppliers don’t provide those materials. 

Thanks for the file. 

Do not use any material whose supplier offers no MSDS.  Here;s an msds https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/MSDS/FORMALIN%2037%20PERCENT%20MSDS.PDF

Here suppliers don’t offer MSDS for anything because it is not the norm here. Most of them don’t know English. They even don’t know the details of the product. For example currently i am purchasing SLS liquid locally but they don’t know the active percentage of it so i don’t know it too. I am just guessing it may be 28% active. 

I understand what you have to go through. I had to sort a lot of things out when I started up here in Mexico. Similar situation although the info is available, just have to navigate to get it. Not as simple as downloading a pdf from lotioncrafter’s website.

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Esters work a whole lot better than vegetable oils for this type of product. Natrasil is great choice, not sure if its palm free. IPM also works, not sure about palm free.

I would keep all the following additions to under 3% total.

10% coconut oil

8% shea butter

6% argan oil

2% broccoli seed oil

You need to find a non draggy wax like cetyl alcohol. I am not familiar with Behenyl alcohol. If it is similar to cetyl alcohol, try using 60%.

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Thank you Mark. This particular client did not pay for any formulas. They paid for customized private label products. I have another potential client, a salon owner with 4 different locations. She is much more reasonable and easier to deal with. She wants 5 different formulations and wants to own the formulas. 

Do you ask for half the payment first or do you collect the entire payment before starting the work ? I understand that the formulas are not to be released until full payment is made.