Bobzchemist
Forum Replies Created
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You need to disclose the formula before we can actually give advice on softness, spreadability and/or texture.
I don’t think anyone here has any experience with horse products, and I don’t know if human skin physiology translates to horse skin, so I can’t help with the urea question. You probably need to consult with a vet school. -
You need an actual quaternary fabric softening agent.
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1st question: How many different emulsifier levels have you tried?
Suggestions:
You will probably need to homogenize right from the beginning, and cool down with an anchor mixer. There’s no need for a propeller mixer at all.The RPM should be set only by visual observation - you want a speed just a little bit lower than the speed that aerates the batch - faster is always better, everything else being equal. This will need to be adjusted as each individual batch progresses - don’t fixate on keeping the same speed all the time - that’s an easy route to many, many failed batches.You might also want to switch your first surfactant to Gransurf W9, but calculate the amount you use so that you keep the Cetyl peg/ppg-10/1 dimethicone level the same.Lastly, you may want to hold off on adding the Dimethicone/vinyl dimethicone crosspolymer and/or the Methyl Methacrylate Crosspolymer until after the emulsion is formed and the batch is starting to thicken. -
@Bimsmide - the “better” way is using some short-chain alcohol to thin the paste before dissolving the soap in water - but this means that you need to have a mixer powerful enough to stir the undiluted Texapon…
One way or another, you have to pay the price to get the Texapon dissolved. -
@milliachemist,
There are basically 4 kinds of soap-making:1) Large-scale industrial - if your name isn’t DuPont, you can’t compete. These people use soap kettles bigger than most peoples houses. Tiny profit margin, even for the big players.2) Small-scale industrial - You need a point of difference to sell your soap (natural, or hypo-allergenic, or moisturizing, etc.), but it’s basically the same style of product that the big guys sell. Small profit margin - barely adequate for most manufacturers. Labor costs vary depending on the level of automation installed.1) Large-scale crafting - Decorative, unusual soaps that use much more labor than industrial soaps - there’s probably a smaller market for these soaps but a higher profit margin - depending on how much your labor costs. Not normally sold in the usual retail channels, either.2) Small-scale crafting - Again, decorative, unusual soaps that use much more labor than industrial soaps. Smaller volume so smaller capital investment, but higher labor costs. It’s mostly a hobby for the majority of people doing this, or at best a weekend business.Which were you thinking of getting into? -
Victoria ,
I don’t think that you could do better than using Mark for formulating and David for manufacturing.Bob -
I personally think that it ought to be OK to say “Our base is 100% organically certified” or “Makeup base is made with organically certified ingredients”and then say “All colorants used are certified by the FDA for use in color cosmetics”, but apparently the organic certifiers won’t allow that.
So, at this point, anyone claiming to sell organically certified makeup in the US is either lying about the certification or is a criminal for selling products that use unapproved colorants. -
Yes, and some people have gotten around the FDA’s ultra-strict color regulations by claiming that the botanical extracts are for some different function other than color.
But…if you do that, you are gambling, betting that the FDA won’t declare your product misbranded for using unapproved colorants and possibly force a recall or even shut you down completely.The risk of that happening is much lower if color is incidental to the performance of the product. Using a botanical extract in a face toner can be explained away, even if it does give the toner a pretty blue tint.But in makeup that has coloring skin as its primary function? That would be a different story. The original question was for organically certified products. That would mean no synthetic colors allowed at all. How could you possibly justify to the FDA that you were selling color-imparting products with no approved colorants in them? I wouldn’t want to take that risk. -
How cheap do homogenizers need to be?
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It was in Evoniks starting formula…
But it’s not needed for the formula, it’s just in there for skin feel and possibly to assist the preservative, as far as I can tell.And I left out that you have to start out homogenizing Phase A and slowly add the water. -
I think sometimes we forget to start from the beginning.
What is the purpose that consumers use a clay mask for?What benefit does adding oil to a water-based clay product deliver? Are you able to add enough oil to a clay mask to overcome the oil-absorbing properties of the clay?Why would you expect that adding oil to a water and clay mixture without using emulsifiers would result in a stable product?Is your finished product passing micro? If not, which of your raw materials is contaminated? -
You may not have to start “completely from scratch - but you can’t keep all that much of your original formula either:
Phase AABIL® EM 90 2.0 %Behenyl Alcohol 0.5 %Cetyl Alcohol 0.5 %Shea Butter 3.0%Soybean Oil 10.5 %Wheat Germ Oil 5.0 %Cyclomethicone 6.0 %Tocopheryl Acetate 0.5 %Phase BMagnesium Sulfate 0.5 %Glycerin 3.0 %Water 63.5 %Phase CAlcohol 5.00 %Preservative, Parfum q.s.-Heat Phase A and B to at least 70C-Homogenize A and B for 20 minutes-Cool to 50C-Add Phase C and then anchor mix to RTYou could say that you “changed” from a o/w to a w/o - or you could say that you started over.Either way, what you had to do was:1. Remove all water phase thickeners2. Remove all o/w emulsifiers and emulsion stabilizers3. Use a w/o emulsifier4. Increase oil phase5. Add magnesium sulfate -
A complete formula with percentages would be needed before we could help you. INCI names would be useful too.
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Biocolors are not FDA approved for use in cosmetics:
Biocolors are not FDA approved for use in cosmetics:Color Additives Approved for Use in CosmeticsPart 73, Subpart C: Color additives exempt from batch certification21 CFR: Straight Color Approved Uses and Restrictions§73.2030 Annatto Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2085 Caramel Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2087 Carmine Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2095 ß-Carotene Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2110 Bismuth citrate(3) Cosmetics intended for coloring hair on the scalp only§73.2120 Disodium EDTA-copper Coloring of shampoos that are cosmetics.§73.2125 Potassium sodium copper chlorophyllin(chlorophyllin copper-complex) Coloring dentifrices that are cosmetics§73.2150 Dihydroxyacetone Externally applied cosmetics(6) intended solely or in part to impart color to the human body.§73.2162 Bismuth oxychloride Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2180 Guaiazulene Externally applied cosmetics(6).§73.2190 Henna Coloring hair but not eyelashes, eyebrows, or eye area.§73.2250 Iron oxides Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.§73.2298 Ferric ammoniumferrocyanide Externally applied cosmetics(6) including eye area use.§73.2299 Ferric ferrocyanide Externally applied cosmetics(6) including eye area use.§73.2326 Chromium hydroxide green Externally applied cosmetics(6) including eye area use.§73.2327 Chromium oxide greens Externally applied cosmetics(6) including eye area use.§73.2329 Guanine Cosmetics generally(5) including eye area use.Annatto, Caramel, Carmine, and ß-Carotene are the only approved natural colorants. -
A couple of suppliers for interesting food emulsifiers: (In no particular order)
Nexira FoodRoquetteTIC GumsIn particular, OSA (Octenyl Succinic Acid) modified Gum Acacia/ Gum Arabic from TIC looked promising.I’ll try to find the rest of the literature later. -
Due to the fact that Beaumont makes a natural vegetable wash, I was just at the IFT southeast suppliers day exhibit last week - there were a number of suppliers touting improved beverage emulsification with gums modified in some way. (There is no getting around homogenization, though.) I’ll try to find the literature I picked up. (Did anyone know that all flavored sodas are microemulsions? I didn’t)
I have to admit that food and supplement technology was much more interesting that I thought it would be, and that there is much less cross-over between food and personal care than I thought there’d be. I think out of about 100 exhibitor tables, and 300-400 people, I only saw 4 or 5 sales reps that I knew.If anyone ever finds themselves able to go to one of these, I strongly recommend it - there are definitely great ideas available there for cosmetic chemists, particularly if you formulate natural products. (Be aware, though, that many of these companies don’t usually deal with cosmetics, so about half of the suppliers I talked to didn’t even know what an INCI name was) -
You could probably make this without the silica just by using gums for emulsification…
Kemin also makes a natural emulsifier that is a soybean extract http://www.kemin.com/products/lysofix -
BTW, it probably isn’t possible to make a pickering emulsion with colloidal anhydrous silica, unless you have extremely powerful milling capability - the silica just aggregates too strongly when dry to get the particle size small enough.
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It’s do-able, although the oil loading into the silica may be 2x too high.
The trick might be to used fumed silica combined with calcium silicate at about a 10:1 ratio. Try silica in water, then add oils.Also, there are various guar/xanthan/acacia gums and gum derivatives that are said to emulsify. A weighting agent may be needed to keep the oils from creaming. Homogenization is critical -
Ingredient Name Supplier Name Gluconolactone (INCI) Aceto Corporation Alfa Chem Archer Daniels Midland Company Jungbunzlauer, Inc. Roquette America, Inc. Spectrum Chemical Mfg. Corp. Universal Preserv-A-Chem, Inc. -
Have you asked Lonza technical service? They are helpful sometimes.