[Aniela]

You may find some answers here https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/chicken-egg-incubator/

[Aniela]

Not familiar with the ingredient, but apparently is water soluble, so you should follow manufacturer’s guidance.

Why an invert/reverse micellar solution though (I didn’t come across a cosmetic formulation using this approach)?

[Aniela]

It could be stevia- I’m not familiar with the blend, but could it be that quality differs according to source? I’m asking because the ones I’ve found are recommended to be added at 0.1%, so 30 times lower than what’s in your formula.

It could also be the hydrogenated oil part of your HA ingredient as it has such a high melting point- did you added it in the system at 80-85C as per manufacturer’s guidance?

[Aniela]

1% xanthan gum is A LOT for a serum (1% is used in hair-gel). On top of that you added HPMC, so no wonder a film “sits” on your skin.

To find out the optimum %, experiment with your gums (separately) in plain water at different %s (I would start with 0.2%) and see how you like the feel and consistency of each resulting gel.

PS- LAA is HIGHLY unstable therefore degrades really FAST=> I’m just wondering how effective is your “serum” after a few days…

[Aniela]

“I read many references for making that type however some details aren’t precise”- they can’t be as it depends on the overall formula.

1) Not a fan of w/o- forced to make one for a project and it proved unstable (split in month 2), so I’ll refrain to highlight any emulsifier as I’m not sure what went wrong. Regardless, I’ve spent a lot of time gathering data on w/o emulsions before starting my experiments- yup, the final one which split after 2 months was experiment no 12.

2) My understanding is that magnesium sulfate is supposed work be better. Electrolytes help partition more emulsifier to the interface and reduce inter-facial tension, leading to greater stability. Divalent electrolytes, such as magnesium sulfate, are typically more effective in this role than monovalent electrolytes like sodium chloride. Some people argue that a mixture of both helps better with stability- no idea if that’s the case.

3) A wax can definitely help with stability. An ester can help only with the skin-feel, and personally, I doubt that a polymer can help with stability in w/o.

4) This seems a good article on that. Emphasis on the word “slowly”.

https://nyscc.org/blog/formulating-effective-and-stable-without-emulsions/

5) I think the most important is to get the oil phase right (“cascading emollients” concept can help), although EVERY ingredient used can impact both, the stability and the sensory profile.

6) There is no such thing as there are too many variables, including the oils used (mineral, plant, silicone). A good place to start is 30 to 70 (w to o) and then adjust based on your experiments. Matching the polarity of the emulsifier with the oil phase can improve stability, which in turn will affect the w/o ratio (one could increase the water %).

7) Considering one has to measure and adjust the pH of the water phase, I assume they use that result.

[Aniela]

Hi,

Micro-contamination is 100% possible, but I suspect the oils, in this order:

1. Black seed oil: VERY prone to oxidation due to its high content of unsaturated fatty acids and volatile compounds; even the refined version can oxidize rapidly if not protected enough;

2. Shea butter: even the refined version can contain oxidized lipids, depending on processing/storage/handling;

3. Pomegranate sterols: if they contain residual unsaponifiables or are not fully deodorized, they could contribute to off-odors.

Ideally, you would perform some knockout experiments to find out the “culprit”.

If you don’t have time to do the said knockout experiments and want to keep the black seed oil, I would start by using a higher % of antioxidants (as obviously 0.1% is not working): either 0.15% tocopherols (0.05% in the oil phase, and 0.1% in the cool-down), or 0.05% tocopherols+ 0.05% rosemary extract+ 0.05% ascorbyl palmitate. Of course you could go higher/lower with the second suggestion, but you have no way to know, other than experimenting.

Different antioxidants work through different mechanisms, and combining them can lead to a synergistic effect (the overall antioxidant capacity is greater than the sum of individual antioxidants).

Also you said you are performing stability tests: it’s curious to me that the rancid smell did not come up after you exposed your emulsion to repeated cycles of high and low temperature, and it developed after one month.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Aniela.

[Aniela]

How much xanthan gum have you used?

[Aniela]

This discussion might help https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/stabilizing-h2o2-containing-oxidant/#post-222434

[Aniela]

Just finished listening this week’s episode on The Beauty Brains podcast, and Valerie’s answer to the “dupes” subject sums it up very well: “In every product you’re still using someone else’s work[…]. Also Perry’s answer is true “it’s all a subtle twist to something that’s already been done”. So yeah, in the end it’s all about marketing, as @Graillotion said.

Bottom line? Most of us (all?) do it, at least as a starting point.

Also, if you’re to be fair, “big brand theft” is no different from “small brand theft”. There is a good part in this, though: it makes one push one’s creative boundaries, right?

[Aniela]

Some things you could consider:

1. You use the maximum of 5% polymer- did you try less, like 2-3%? Same white “flakes” appeared?

2. “application on hair (from a regular plastic mist spray bottle)”- the regular bottles spray a way bigger “drop” than the ones made for perfume or hair sprays, hence the hair gets wetter, and also the white “flakes”

3. The solubilizer at 4% plus essential oils at 0.6% only add to the issue of drying slower. If needed, I would use just enough fragrance to cover the smell of the active materials. Also, people might use a perfume that clashes with the scent of the essential oils you’ve used

4. Herbal extracts at 8%- if they are glycerin-based, the glycerin might contribute to the white “flakes” you see after drying. I assume the extracts are there because of a trend, so you could go for 1% or less

Finally, I would get hold of a proper spray-bottle, and make a sample with just water and 2-3% polymer, then take it from there. Or keep the bottle you have and make a sample with water, ethanol (the manufacturer recommends max 10% ethanol with the polymer you use), and the polymer to see how it works.

PS- I didn’t work with MaizeCare Clarity Polymer, but I do wonder if it is intended only for clear hair gels, or also for hair sprays- DOW presents sample formulations with it only for hair gel, hence my doubt.

[Aniela]

I do not make them, but silicone or acrylate polymers used to enhance water resistance can have a greasy or sticky feel. Personally, I would “play” with the 2 above, and see how it goes. Also, the %s of the sunscreen-agents can lead to that. This might help with the latter https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/ls706p/percentages_of_uv_filters_for_european_sunscreens/

PS- Does your benchmark use the same emulsifier system? I find it a bit odd, but again, I’m not familiar with making sunscreens.

[Aniela]

They are powders. And standard packaging: no vacuum and such.

[Aniela]

Thank you.

[Aniela]

I mean the individual packages will be sealed, but only like any other powder ingredient, nothing special like vacuum. Also there will be no sunlight, only sun-heat😁

[Aniela]

Thank you. No such thing: they will be in a ordinary cardboard box, in a truck.

PS - You’ll see I’ve just asked in a separate post-I thought you took it like a silly question so you won’t answer. Sorry, I know, overthinking doesn’t help…

[Aniela]

😃 Thank you for chipping in. Nice touch for 8am- I suppose you had your coffee already.

I love Shrek, so I’ll stick to his story:

Tinogard, it’s like Princess Fiona for some of us- as hard to find/get as she is. Maybe easier for @simplepimple , I don’t know.

Now, adding the Black Seed Oil to the oil phase would be like handing Fiona to Lord Farquaad. The oxidative stability of this oil is VERY low, so it has to go in the cool down phase. But I do agree that adding it at claim levels, as you suggested with the moss extract, could remove the issue.

Not finished yet😇

Would you mind to help me on a different topic, please? (sorry @simplepimple )

Someone is coming from the US, and I want to take advantage and order acetyl zyngerone, n-acetyl glucosamine, and hexylresorcinol, but these will be exposed (during transport to the US destination) to a temp of 50-55C for about 24 hours(they checked with the company). Would these ingredients be rendered unusable? Thank you.

[Aniela]

1. As previously said, even if you used only xanthan, 1% is A LOT.

2. My suggestion to experiment with the gums and plain water still stands.

[Aniela]

Think of this like a “conflict situation”: the sterols and the oils in the cool-down phase are the damsels in distress, and the tocopherols are the knights in shiny armor. The first knight (in the oil phase) will let himself be killed or badly hurt to protect the damsel (sterols in your case) and the second knight (in the cool-down phase) will fight to keep the other damsels (oxidation prone ingredients) safe and sound.

[Aniela]

You’ll find a short explanation here, under “What are esters”

https://cosmetics.iql-nog.com/content/8-basic-concepts

and a more detailed one here, in @Graillotion‘s comments

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/emollients-2/

Also feel free to search the www for more😉

cosmetics.iql-nog.com

Basic concepts

Basic concepts

[Aniela]

Yes, it does feel strange, but it would be a smart move. They can make a claim that cost them nothing extra, and also help them to clear the image of “big-bad guys” (as not many consumers are aware that they already invest in environmental assessments).

• This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Aniela.

[Aniela]

A (wild) thought: what if the Big guys were fed-up with paying other organizations, and decided to anticipate the next move of the clean/free from/natural/… people, and came up with this concept? This way the money will still stay in their pockets(plus they will take money from the new affiliates), also they will have a reason to say they care. Too wild?

[Aniela]

It’s good to know the “robot” is sometimes useful 😉

[Aniela]

I wish I could help, but aside from testing the pigment from a different supplier, no brilliant ideas…

[Aniela]

Hi, I’m so happy you chimed in😃

I’m curious, did ChatGPT give a good answer?

Thank you.

[Aniela]

This is the procedure recommended (ChatGPT, not me)

PROCEDURE.docx 16 KB Word Document - Click to view

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