Aniela
Forum Replies Created
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Love this- it’s more my cup of tea than the soaps you’re so passionate about.
I know that losing a business hurts, and I also know that the passion doesn’t die with the business, so I hope soon enough, you’ll share another exciting experiment, only this time, a recent one????
PS- nothing against soaps, just not my passion
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Just for fun, I’ve asked chatgpt, and surprisingly (to me), the answer makes sense:
Most Likely Causes of Pink Discoloration:
1. Geogard ECT
INCI: Benzyl Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Glycerin, Sorbic Acid
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Why: This is a broad-spectrum preservative that is well known to sometimes cause pink, red, or orange discoloration in formulations — especially in alkaline or moisture-prone environments, or when interacting with metal ions or certain surfactants.
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Mechanism: The sorbic acid in it can undergo oxidation or microbial degradation, especially when pH is not sufficiently low (ideally below 5.5), leading to color changes.
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Why: This antifungal active is typically a white to off-white powder, but can discolor in the presence of certain surfactants, preservatives, or pH shifts. There have been rare reports of it contributing to color shifts in formulations, especially when not fully solubilized or evenly dispersed.
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While honey is usually amber to golden, in combination with heat or certain preservatives, it can sometimes darken or react, though pink is not the usual result.
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Generally colorless to pale yellow, but can oxidize over time, especially with exposure to heat, light, or metal ions, potentially interacting with other ingredients.
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Usually used as pH adjusters. Not direct causes, but can shift the pH, affecting the behavior of color-reactive ingredients like Geogard ECT.
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Storage Conditions:
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Heat, humidity, or light can accelerate discoloration reactions.
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Metal Contamination: From manufacturing equipment, containers, or water can catalyze discoloration (especially iron, copper).
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Microbial Growth: If preservation is not strong enough, microbial contamination can cause pink/reddish growth — though Geogard ECT typically handles this unless underdosed or pH is off.
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Suggested Next Steps:
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Check pH — keep it below 5.5 if using Geogard ECT.
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Remove Geogard ECT in a test batch to see if the pinking stops.
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Protect from light and air — store in opaque, airtight containers.
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Use chelating agents (e.g., disodium EDTA) to bind metal ions.
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Evaluate raw materials (especially honey and ketoconazole) for any color or odor changes.
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This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Aniela.
2. Ketoconazole
Possible but Less Likely Contributors:
3. Manuka Honey
4. Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
5. Citric Acid / Sodium Citrate
Other Factors to Consider:
1. “I really don’t see other products like this on the market (besides sucragel based formulas - I’ve tried these and I don’t like them) which makes me wonder why.”
Here are some of the ones on the market https://incidecoder.com/ingredients/peg-20-glyceryl-triisostearate and also Paula’s choice, which sells this https://www.paulaschoice.com/omegaand-complex-cleansing-balm/338-3380.html
You can check further for your other PEG.
2. “Is there a contraindication with the surfactants or something that makes this difficult to do?”- not familiar with PEGs, so can’t help you here.
3. “What about adding something like cetearyl alcohol?”- based on the function of PEG-20 glyceryl triisostearate, adding cetearyl alcohol will make your product more “draggy” and less cleansing. If you’re asking about just oils and cetearyl alcohol, that won’t be a nice product to use, nor it will clean as you’d want to.
It is about drugs, not cosmetics, and it’s about India, not the EU.
“The Drugs Technical Advisory Board (DTAB) has agreed with a report from its sub-committee headed by Dr Nilima Kshirsagar, which declared 16 fixed dose combinations (FDCs) as irrational and recommended for prohibition as these may pose risk to the human beings[…] The sub-committee collected information from the manufacturers of these drugs and examined various aspects related to them, before submitting its recommendation to the Board[…] As reported earlier, the drug regulator banned around 156 FDCs, including pain relief combinations, vitamins, antibiotics, among others last year, based on recommendation from the expert committee[…] According to earlier reports, the list of 16 FDCS considered as irrational include combination of acetyl salicylic acid with ethoheptazine; aloe extract with aloe extract with allantoin, alpha tocopherol acetate, D-panthenol and vitamin A; Aloe extract with vitamin E, dimethicone and glycerine; aloe vera with jojoba oil and vitamin E; aloe vera with orange oil; aloe vera with jojoba oil, wheat germ oil and tea tree oil; aloe vera with vitamin E and herbal; dicyclomine with paracetamol and clidinium bromide; dicyclomine with paracetamol, clidinium bromide and chlordiazepoxide; gliclazide with chromium picolinate; paracetamol with lignocaine; amoxicillin with serratiopeptidase and lactobacillus sporogenes; amoxicillin with cloxacillin, lactic acid bacillus and serrapeptase; amoxicillin and serratiopeptidase; cefadroxil and probenecid; and cefurosime with serratiopeptidase.” - top news, pharmabiz.com, India.
It would have been great to have access to such articles. Maybe some day…
It’s not a total miss though, as they provided the references, so I still have something.
Thank you for posting this.
I would start questioning the order on the ingredients list: the one on their website is this “Salt, Citric Acid, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Sodium Salicylate, Fragrance.“, which obviously it’s not accurate, as the first listed ingredient should not be salt.
The list you’ve provided, again, might be just a “convenient “variation, and not the real order of the ingredients. Unfortunately that’s a pretty common practice when a company is not big- they think only the big players are exposed…
You could ignore the order on the list and just make a body wash with CAPB as a secondary surfactant, and SCI+SLS as the primary ones, and see how that goes.
That aside, the liquid form of CAPB comes with salt. The one I use has 37% active, and 5.8-7.3% sodium chloride, so you’ll have around 1.8-2% salt if using 30% CAPB, and that can already be too much for the surfactant system you’ve used- hence the system “doesnt respond to Sodium Chloride at all - no thickening, no matter what I do”. There’s also the possibility that I’m thinking according only to my experience and not to the real chemistry, so I’ll pass this ball to @ketchito ????
Hi,
It’s not clear why you listed Marie’s (humblebeeandme) formula in your initial post.
Have you made that and you’re not happy about the outcome?
question 1 :
I’ve made such an emulsifier based on LisaLise’s article a few years ago. Her proposed formula is:
Glycerin 50-55%
Oil of choice 20-25%
Sucrose stearate HLB 15 10%
Water 10%
question 2 :
I’m not familiar with trihydroxystearin or dextrin palmitate, but to thicken my hair-serum/other oil serums, I usually go with cera bellina.
I would only say that there is no such thing as “cosmetic supplement”- IF a supplement works, it will enhance one’s health, therefore would have skin-effects as well.
…but there is such thing as marketing and gullible people.
Hi Natasha,
First of all, I do not think that a “silicone replacement” will necessarily act as a real silicone.
Also, a 16% of oil might work in a conditioner bar, but I highly doubt that will work in a cream-conditioner.
Apart from the 600+ Forum discussions on “conditioner”, you might find these two articles interesting/useful:
https://chemistscorner.com/what-conditioner-ingredient-work-the-best/
https://labmuffin.com/busting-hair-conditioner-myths-build-up-silicones-weighing-hair-down-etc/
Hi Phil,
I only said it makes sense, I didn’t say everything it’s true????
I know that Geogard ECT is not broad spectrum, I guess it’s my fault that I left the whole answer given by chatgpt.
Still, I was surprised, as I was expecting a colossally-wrong answer.
Thank you, indeed.
Thank you, @chemicalmatt, it’s clear now.
May I ask you here something unrelated, please?
I’ve read all your answers regarding stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (I’ve got some and I want to play with it), and I’m not sure when/which phase to add the neutralisation agent.
In Evonik’s sample formulations they use citric acid added in the water phase, but in one of your answers you said that the best next-thing after glutamic acid would be lactic acid. If I’m not wrong, lactic acid is not heat-stable, so would it work if added in the cool-down, please? Or do I have to go with citric acid?
Thank you.
“Since sodium chloride is explicitly listed in their ingredients, they must have added extra salt in the formulation.”- there’s the possibility that the less-than-1%-line starts with sodium chloride, and also the possibility that they used CAPB powder.
Thank you for the heads-up.
Does that leave the salt present in the liquid CAPB as the “culprit”?
Thank you????
Why would you “doubt the legitimacy of it”?
Did you notice that this is an anhydrous product?
As a side note, the 40% urea ointment used for chemical avulsion of fungal-infected nails, is also anhydrous.
Hi,
Yes, there is a “rule of thumb” which works as a start for most emulsifiers, and that’s exactly what you have read: 1:4 (emulsifier to oils). Meaning one can start there, and then tweak according to what one wants to achieve.
Regarding the use of APG, you have your answer from @ketchito in the thread above.
Anyway, considering the science, I wouldn’t continue on this route: when making an emulsion/cream, the obvious choice is an emulsifier, not a surfactant.
All right, but APG is still vague: there are quite a few of them.
Also, wouldn’t that be a foaming emulsion?
@ketchito , would you be so kind to make some light here, please?
Had to google APG????- the ones BASF makes have “excellent foaming and cleansing properties”, aka a proper surfactant.
So why APG in a cream as the main emulsifier?
To clarify, “it won’t make a big difference” was meant for the skin-feel, not the stability.
Considering you’ll reduce the fatty alcohols and add more shea, it shouldn’t make a big difference.
What’s the INCI name of your emulsifier?
Second time is a charm????
Yey! I’m pretty smart????
Joke aside, thank you for confirming my thoughts. I was also tempted to point the polyquaternium 7, based on past experiences with polyquats. I didn’t, because I feel almost like a fraud for not being a chemist/pharmacist/etc, and being less able to express my thoughts in chemical/professional terms.
But I’m working to get there????
Thank you, again.
Hopefully after a walk (fresh air) your nose will “perform” better????
It’s always good to learn new things, so is it too much if I ask you to share the “culprit” after you finish your experiments?
Thank you.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Aniela.