[ajw000]

@chemicalmatt I’m still learning in this area, I was trying to stay away from surfactants as they are what strip the oils in the conditioner away from the hair. Am I correct in that understanding? 

I will have to look into emulsifiers and stability testing as well. 

[ajw000]

64.28 % Water 9.44 % Stearyl Alcohol 7.55% Behenyl Alcohol 9.43% Oils .75% Guar gum .94% Marshmallow root powder Rest: Preservative, fragrance, proteins

[ajw000]

@pharma, any suggestions?

[ajw000]

Yes

Stearyl Alcohol 9.44%

Behenyl Alcohol 7.55%

[ajw000]

@Pharma

Okay, I think I get that now. Maybe it is better to state my end goal and get feedback on what would be suggested. 

Currently I have a conditioner that performs more like a “cream rinse”. When you put it in your hair it almost disappears and you can’t tell if it is still in your hair while you are massaging it into your scalp/hair. 

How can I increase the “presence” of the product during application without using surfactants that strip away all of the conditioning ingredients of the conditioner?  *while maintaining 100% natural claim*

[ajw000]

@ketchito Can you explain a little more how “surfactant active matter content (expressed as 100% concentration of each surfactant)” is calculated? is that just the % of surfactants of the total formula?

Since that original post I have adjusted the % amounts here are the new ones, I’m guessing they are still too high..?

52.05% Water 

2.31% Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate

2.31% Caprylyl Capryl Glucoside

10.61% Coco Glucoside

19.84% Decyl Glucoside

3.69 Oils (To help disperse Xanthan) 4.61% Apple Cider Vinaegar 4.58% Preservative, Xanthan, Fragrance

[ajw000]

Following up on this, I have been able to completely remove Glycerin and dissolve the xanthan and Menthol in the oil. 

@ketchito you mentioned I have a very high surfactant %. What would the suggested % be for a shampoo? 

Thanks everyone!

[ajw000]

In addition to marketing, it also leaves a silky after feel on hair. 

[ajw000]

Dropped Glycerin to 2% (enough to dissolve the xanthan and menthol crystals) and sliced the apple cider vinegar in half. Lather is much better! Thanks for the help! 

[ajw000]

Also, I am using Menthol crystals and Xanthan gum, which I dissolved in glycerin.. What else would I dissolve them in? 

[ajw000]

@chemicalmatt Thank you for the info! I’m up for reducing/removing glycerin from the formula. Can you suggest how to better dissolve the SCI in the solution? when I try to dissolve in surfactants it turns into a bubbly mess, and with too little agitation there are visible flakes left. Currently that is what I had been using Glycerin for. 

[ajw000]

@Dragonturtle  and @ketchito

I will try lowering the apple cider, and look for other ways to increase the ph level naturally, then report findings. I’m aiming for a 100% natural formula, so cocamidopropyl betaine is out unfortunately, though I have heard good things as well. 

Thanks!

[ajw000]

It appears to have been the fact that I use to put the kaolin in the oil phase. Instead I put it in after mixing the oil and water phases  and that seems to have fixed it.. Time will tell to be sure, but it seems good now. Thank you all!

[ajw000]

@ketchito, thank you for the feedback! Concerning ph, hair has a normal ph of 4.5-5.5? I was trying to keep it close to that, but need a new ph meter to be sure.

For a natural chelating agent, could I use Citric Acid? 

Are you saying to ditch isethionate completely? It’s difficult to dissolve it without glycerin anyways.. If I try to disperse in surfactants it turns into a bubble fest. 

[ajw000]

I have an oil phase and water phase that I mix together after heating. I have been putting the Kaolin in the oil phase, should I change that? 

@LincsChemist What about Tocopherol or Rosemary Oleoresin? I’m trying to figure out the final PH but can’t find a ph meter that works well, any suggestions? 

How is it I see so many other formulas with kaolin but they don’t have this issue? 

[ajw000]

@chemicalmatt any suggestions? The kaolin is a crucial element.. Are you saying to change supplier, or is there another solution to work around it? Why would Kaolin cause the fragrance to go “sour”?

[ajw000]

@LincsChemist the product begins to smell bad. I have tried 2 different fragrances and 2 different fragrance companies and the all result in a bad smell after the product goes through stability testing. 

[ajw000]

@chemicalmatt

The product does not have enough hold. I know PVP will offer a specific type of hold, but I am wanting a firmer support element to compliment the PVP. The higher melt point helps the product perform on hot days. 

I use Carnauba and Beeswax in other formulas and have never had this problem, so I am hesitant to say the wax is causing the rapid solidification. 

I found a thread (link below) I found from 2016 where @Bill_Toge and others seemed to indicate that the Ceteareth-25 was causing the thickening. I have experienced the same thickening and bubble problem he mentioned. @Chemist77 said his formula worked perfectly, but when I increased the ceteareth to almost 30% it just thickens faster. 

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/23494#Comment_23494

[ajw000]

@Perry

Oil and Water phase are heated separately. 

Water phase is pre-mixed then brought to temp. 

Oil phase is mixed with an overhead stirrer while heating until it reaches 190 and all the Candelilla wax has melted. 

Water is then mixed with the Oil phase using the overhead stirrer. 

The thermal gun reads Oil and Water separately at 190, then when I mix after 2 min it reads at 150. If it read properly prior, it doesn’t make sense that it wouldn’t read properly after mixed. 

What else would be causing it to thicken so quickly and lose temperature? The strangest part is I continued to heat the product for 15 min, even covering with saran wrap to try to heat it more, and the product would never reach high temp again. All while the glass container is sitting in 190f water.  (only a 100g batch so 15min should’ve been plenty of time.)

PVP is in water phase 

[ajw000]

Ok, I think I got it. But I am having trouble converting my grams to ML ratio for volume. Can anyone show me how to calculate? 

Water: 23.4g
Alcohol 91%: 42.7g
Aloe: 1.3g
Glycerin: 1.6g
Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer: .3g
Triethanolamine: .2g

Total Grams: 69.5

I found online that .785g of isopropyl alcohol= 1ml 

[ajw000]

@Pharma where can I find conversion tables? Thanks! 

[ajw000]

@Pharma 28 x 91% = 25.48

25.48/40.4grams= 63.07%  weight volume(I missed a zero last time). How do you calculate v/v? Also, is the fda looking for w/v or v/v labeling requirements? WHO suggests at least 60% for effectiveness, is that w/v or v/v? 

@LincsChemist what alcohol% did you use when using ultrez-21? Any suggestions? 

[ajw000]

@Pharma its 63.7 solution, not 70%

[ajw000]

Hey guys, I’m having difficulty with thickening. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Grams	40
Water	9.8
Alcohol 91%	28.0
Aloe	1.2
Glycerin	0.8
Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer	0.2
triethanolamine	0.4

This was nice and thick before all the alcohol was added, but watered down after 28g alcohol. I tried adding .2 more triethanolamine with no affect, I then tried adding .1 more Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer with no affect. 

Other Ingredients I have readily available: 
Propylene Glycol 
PEG-40 Castor oil 

[ajw000]

@LincsChemist - I ordered  Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, what % alcohol did you use to make yours?