[ajw000]

Something helpful for me has been looking at products you like and researching the ingredients and what their uses are. It’s not going to be a straight point a-b end result, but it is very helpful in the learning process. 

[ajw000]

Anything claiming a “healing” property will need to list the drug facts. If you are making a claim it will need to be with ingredients that are FDA approved for the claim you are making. I would suggest visiting the FDA website and doing some study on labeling and claims requirements. Unfortunately I think you will find you will need to change your verbiage with marketing so that you aren’t making a claim. 

[ajw000]

Hi All, 

Circling back to this after many trials over the holidays.. The PVP/VA is definitely the culprit, the emulsions are completely stable prior to adding this, and even with the help of a carbomer or Acrylates it separates out like the pictures above. 

I’ve tried mixing it in the water phase (yes, mix temps are higher than the melt temps of the wax phase.) 

I’ve tried adding pvp after mixing the water phase, and that doesn’t help either. 

Has anyone run into this issue before? 

[ajw000]

@ketchito And the idea is increasing the thickness will help increase stability? 

For stability testing, what should be the ideal heat temp during heating/cooling phases? Is it normal if you get it hot to say 170f+ that it separates again? 

[ajw000]

@ketchito

I would have to look into getting those, and I’m under tight deadlines, and most suppliers have a month plus wait time right now. 

I use the same PVP & PVP/VA items in other styling products. Any reason as to why it would work in all the others, but not this one? 

Would something like  Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer or sodium carbomer help with stability? 

[ajw000]

Update: 
@ketchito It does appear that the PVP/VA copolymer is a large part of the problem. I figured out a stable formula and then added PVP/VA after. Great w/out, starts sweating and unstable after adding. 

Any suggestions for increasing stability with it? 

I know reducing it is an option. I do notice hold seems to increase over time in the hair, is there anything that can make the hold more immediate? 

[ajw000]

@prow18 I’ve tried adding PEG-40 HCO.. Not sure if it helps or not. 

Yep, I’ve tried increasing all those emulsifiers and its still acting funny after sitting. 

[ajw000]

Any suggestions on sorbitan oleate vs stearate? 

[ajw000]

@ariepfadli 

Am I correct that span= polysorbate. So polysorbate 80 or 20? 

[ajw000]

@PeaceLoveNaturals are these your products, or products you formulated, or products you have been sampling to start your own formulation process? 

[ajw000]

@Abdullah See attached pictures. From the side it looks fine, but if you look underneath you see water pooling.

As for viscosity and xanthan gum, I actually need to reduce thickness, it’s closer to a paste right now than a cream. There is a slight yellow film on the top of the product after it cools. Lanolin and Carnauba being the only yellow ingredients, this leads me to believe it is a stability issue, not a thickness issue. 

I’m making sure the water and oil phase are mixed at at least 180f and mixed with an immersion blender until it reaches 145f to pour. 

[ajw000]

@ariepfadli I did a trial with 

1% Ceteareth-20
1% PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate 
1% Glyceryl Stearate 
Reduced Carnauba to 3%

and made sure the HLB was balanced. 

Still having separation on the bottom. 

[ajw000]

@Joram, I have tried batches substituting the fragrance for water, same effect occurs. No, it is a solid cream, no sliding in jar at room temperature. 

The product does sweat after capping, water beads form on top of the product. I’m waiting plenty of time to make sure the external and internal temperature of the product reaches room temp. This, to me, points to the instability i’m experiencing, which makes me think its an oil/emulsifier issue. But I’m having difficulty locating it. 

[ajw000]

@ketchito Hold for hair styling.

[ajw000]

 I found a ratio that is more stable, however there is a bit of a problem. When I make a smaller batch without PVP/VA + PVP it is very stable. When I scale up to about 660 grams and add the PVP/VA the batch becomes unstable and separates. I’ve never experienced this before. 

Has anyone ever seen this? I’m using those ingredients in the same manner (water phase) as I do with all my other products. 

[ajw000]

+1% glyceryl stearate w/o steareth 21 or 2 and no results. 

[ajw000]

Correction, total separation after reheating and cooling. 

[ajw000]

@ketchito any suggestions on % to use for steareth-21 and steareth 2? I just tried steareth-21@1% and Steareth-2@0.5% and it had slight separation. 

@Bill_Toge Thanks for the info. No issues with brown color, and I’ve tried test batches without Potassium Sorbate and had the same result. While Potassium sorbate may not be the culprit in this scenario, it’s good to know I can save some money on % amounts!

[ajw000]

@ketchito 

I tried 2 different batches with water in oil emulsifiers

1) adding 0.75% sorbitan stearate 
2) adding 0.75% sorbitan oleate 

Sorbitan stearate separated immediately 
Sorbitan oleate didn’t stop sweating/weeping

[ajw000]

The other strange thing is when I put it through stability testing: Heating and freezing cycles, it never separates, it stays strong. 

[ajw000]

@ketchito

I tried swapping out PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate for straight Glyceryl Stearate, but that didn’t work either. Any suggestions on what type of w/o emulsifier to use? 

Its not full creaming, its a yellow film that rises to the top, then it starts sweating on the top. 

[ajw000]

@pattsi - Too much .. C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate? It doesn’t seem to have any issues, just the oils separate and float to the top. 

[ajw000]

@Pattsi

I don’t have an issue with C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate solubizing in Isododecane, the issue is any oils I add separate from the serum. Example: with Jojoba, there will be a golden film at the top after it sits for an hour or so, by the color I know it’s not the C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate.

c12-15 currently at 10%

[ajw000]

Thanks @Bill_Toge

I’ve been trying to figure out how I see other silicone based serums with oils in their ingredients. How do they do this and get it to emulsify? I’ve tried other oils like Jojoba, castor, apricot, etc. They all separate from the silicone. 

[ajw000]

@Chemicalmatt What about Glyceryl Stearate to emulsify? Can that be labeled as natural? Most of what I am finding says yes.