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@Belassi It’s nice to hear I’m not alone with that experience. Is there a particular practice that you like to do to get to know a new surfactant or is it more of an organic process for you?

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To me it feels a bit like playing whack-a-mole. I understand that people want to help themselves and I like to support that in general, but I do wish that those who are considered authorities didn’t fuel this fire in irresponsible ways. Not quite at the point where I would be willing to unleash the censoring bots but I understand the sentiment.

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Two years ago I had my own “Why don’t I make a shampoo, surely it can’t be that hard?”-moment… Many (unbelievably) bad hair days later I’ve learned that it really is that hard, and I already had some education in the relevant fields. Unless you are truly passionate about formulating and willing to spend a lot of time and money learning, I would recommend that you work with an experienced formulator to develop a shampoo that meets your standards.

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@lmosca Thank you for your enlightening posts on this.

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Seems like a bit of a waste of Ethanol. Here’s a list of suggestions for surface disinfection: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/disinfectants/covid-19/list.html#tbl1

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Maybe it’s a stupid question, but if you’re basing this on soap, couldn’t it be formulated to be “self-preserving” via a high pH?

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I’ve changed my mind since. Will be making an hand sanitizing spray.

Glad you’ve changed your mind towards a liquid product, that definitely is the safe choice. However, sprays will not dispense enough product. It seems to be little known that one needs about 3ml per application so that hands stay wet for the 30 seconds required for full effectiveness. (If you don’t believe me, try doing the WHO hand rub steps after spraying your hands with sanitizer - they will likely be dry by the time you get to step 2 or 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnSjFr6J9HI)
It’s best to use a pump for dispensing, alternatively use a flip top bottle or similar.

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@tracingrobots I was thinking about how they could achieve not a more concentrated, but a less concentrated barley juice, which is as close to water as possible so it doesn’t make preservation impossible at such a high percentage.

@Perry Thank you for your thoughts on this. Interesting about the “international” water declaration being common practice, it’s the first time I’ve seen it but it does seem like a fairly harmless and sensible transgression. As for the business model you described, I oscillate between admiration and disgust.

I’m particularly surprised (and slightly worried) by the notion that a product may pass a PET but is still likely to have some degree of failure with customers. I was hoping microbiological safety would be as simple as passing a PET, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense that there can still be many points of failure after that. How reliable do you find a passed PET in practice? Do you set higher standards for your formulations than the minimum legal requirements (for example rejecting formulas which passed but only just scraped by)?

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I have a sample of such a product here, by a German brand called Plaine. It’s said to replace body wash, shampoo and shaving cream.

This is the list of ingredients: Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Myristoyl Glutamate, Talc, Maltodextrin, Citric Acid, Xanthan Gum, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Aesculus Hippocastanum (Horse Chestnut) Seed Extract, Hamamelis Virginiana (Witch Hazel) Leaf Extract, Perfume (Fragrance), Limonene, Linalool, Citral

I’ve had it for about two years and barely even felt tempted to try it. As lmosca, I don’t see the advantage over bar products.

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I wouldn’t call Tata Harper small at an estimated revenue of $60m per year.

Is it possible that they used some sort of processed (filtered, centrifuged, pasteurized…?) barley leaf juice to replace some of the water? The cream does appear to be brownish. Further down the list I can see Sodium anisate, Sodium levulinate, Sodium P-Anisic Acid, Leuconostoc ferment filtrate, Magnolia officinalis bark extract and “Aroma”, maybe Natipide? @Perry do you think those ingredients have the potential to provide sufficient preservation to allow for some barley leaf juice, or is that just never going to work?

On the other hand, Aqua/Water/Eau surely isn’t right either? I find it disappointing that companies like Tata Harper can get away with mislabelling their products.

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Have a look over here: https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf

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@Fekher Hope it helps

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Just a bit of safety info on essential oils, particularly the highly allergenic cinnamaldehyde. At 1% concentration, 2% of patch tests showed a reaction, “this makes cinnamaldehyde the most high-risk essential oil constituent known from patch testing (Tisserand and Young 2014, p93).” The recommended maximum safe dilution of cinnamon bark oil is below 0.07%. I don’t know if that is high enough to do anything against spores though. 
(Source: https://tisserandinstitute.org/new-survey-reveals-dangers-of-not-diluting-essential-oils/)

Furthermore, since Ethanol enhances penetration, I would personally want to go even lower than that or avoid potential allergens altogether. Hydrogen peroxide is easy enough to buy, and by the way also very useful for surface disinfection if you don’t know what to do with the rest of the bottle. Just be sure to dilute appropriately and wear gloves… Ouch.

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You will find your questions on how to make sanitizer without a gelling agent answered here: https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7284/how-do-you-make-hand-sanitizer (follow the link in the first post to the WHO guidelines, and stick to the guidelines)

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There seems to be some confusion around that gel = pump and liquid = spray, but this is wrong. Liquid sanitizers are not to be sprayed (for use on hands), as Belassi said you cannot apply enough and it will just evaporate too quickly. Liquid sanitizers are used in the exact same way as gel sanitizers. You may just need to use a bit more because you need a good amount for your hands to stay wet for long enough, and some will drip if you use enough. If you can’t stop it from dripping, you’re doing it right. If your hands aren’t dripping with liquid sanitizer, you’re probably not using enough.

So just pour or pump ~3ml of liquid into one hand, and then do the WHO handrub steps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnSjFr6J9HI Proper application is as important as the right product!

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For cleaning air I would look into HEPA filters.

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Please also read these two threads:

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7154/how-to-formulate-60-ipa-based-hand-sanitizer-gel

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7222/sanitiser

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Here’s what the guide says:

Hydrogen peroxide: used to inactivate contaminating bacterial spores in the solution and is not an active substance for hand antisepsis

So, if you remove the hydrogen peroxide, it won’t affect how well the sanitizers kills the viruses. However, hydrogen peroxide does act on bacterial spores in the sanitizer itself, and it is important to deactivate those so that you don’t catch a bacterial disease from it.

Hydrogen peroxide shouldn’t be hard to get, I would just add it if you can at all. If you really can’t, I would personally still use it, but that’s just me and not something I would suggest if you intend to sell it.

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I found HygCen in Germany: https://www.hygcen.de/ They appear certified to the standard EN 14476:2015-12 https://www.hygcen.de/fileadmin/media/user_upload/Germany/Akkreditierung/Disinfectants_Accreditation_certificate_and_scope_DAkkS_20_09_2018.pdf

EN 14476 seems to test poliovirus, adenovirus, bovine/mouse parvovirus and mouse Norovirus as model viruses.

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@Even I’m not familiar with US regulations, I would start by checking with the FDA. My viewpoint is informed from research on the situation in Switzerland.

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Hand sanitizer is not a cosmetic. It is a biocidal product that people rely on for their safety.
If you make a bad formula, you’re not just giving someone a bad hair day, you’re potentially playing a part in their grandmother’s death. Unless you get your product tested, you are under a moral
obligation, and in some places a legal obligation to use least 70%v/v
ethanol or 60%v/v IPA.

Also, gelling agents are not an essential part of hand sanitizer and potentially compromising the efficacy of the product. Quote from the WHO Guide to Local Production:

No data are available to assess the suitability of adding gelling agents to WHO-recommended liquid formulations, but this could increase potentially both production difficulties and costs, and may compromise antimicrobial efficacy.

I’ve only ever seen liquid hand sanitizer used in the three hospitals I’ve worked in and dozens that I’ve visited. This was a deliberate choice in one of the most advanced health care systems in the world. So as a doctor, I choose to make the proven WHO formula for myself and my family:

https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf

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Even said:

I would like to ask a question
Are Hand sanitizers (contain  alcohol 75%) OTC product??
Thanks for your help.

You’ll have to check your local regulations on this.

Where I live, hand sanitizers form their own regulatory group of biocidal chemical products which require specific efficacy testing if they contain any more than a total of 0.5%w/w additives to the water, alcohol and denaturant mix. They also require 70-80%v/v ethanol, or 60-80%v/v for IPA to avoid the testing requirement. Other countries I’ve heard require hand sanitizer production to take place in GMP-certified facilities. Just mentioning these as some things to look out for.

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I see, thank you.

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@Belassi Also thinking of making a caffeine shampoo, what is your reasoning why you wouldn’t use more than 0.04% in a shampoo?

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Could you share the name of the American supplier?