[Adamnfineman]

MarkBroussard said:

That would be a question for a patent attorney.  The point here is to help Jaycetowww learn how to formulate a serum as his/her proposed formula was simply not going to work.

@MarkBroussard
You’re definitely right about both of these points. Sorry for derailing the post a bit, it wasn’t my intention to argue about technicalities in a patent. I wanted to make sure @Jaycetowww was informed that a patent exists that may apply if he was trying to sell this serum.

I’d rather not get off on the wrong foot with you as I appreciate the experience backed knowledge you’ve provided in many posts. 

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard 

I understand that this is the most effective combination for stabilizing Vitamin C that is covered by the patent. Every one of their claims include the solvent + Vitamin C + Cinnamic Acid derivative, but not every one of their claims includes Vitamin E.

Doesn’t that mean that the formulae without Vitamin E are still covered by the patent even though they are less effective?

[Adamnfineman]

Looking through the list of claims on the patent I see there are many different versions of their formula, with and without Vitamin E, that are covered. It seems like they’re focusing on the solvent + Vitamin C + cinnamic acid derivatives and then expanding that to cover any variations.

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard

It says it “may also comprise a form of Vitamin E” I assumed that meant the combination of the solvent with Vitamin C and Ferulic Acid was the main purpose of the patent. That last sentence looks like it was put in to cover a broader range of formulae.

[Adamnfineman]

Hi @Jaycetowww 

I just want to point out that the formula that @MarkBroussard shared is patented by L’Oreal. I don’t think you’re planning on making a product to sell commercially but if that’s that case I would find a different formula to use. This particular patent only applies to US territories but I don’t know if they have filed patents in other countries too.

Summary of the patent:
“The present invention relates to single-phase solution compositions of L-ascorbic acid that provide enhanced stability, enhanced solubility and an enhanced photoprotective effect as compared to prior compositions. The single-phase solution compositions comprise by weight 5% to 40% L-ascorbic acid; 0.2% to 5.0% of a cinnamic acid derivative, such as p-coumaric acid, ferulic acid, caffeic acid, sinapinic acid, a derivative thereof, or a combination thereof; 10% to 60% of a solvent comprising a glycol ether and an alkanediol; and water; the composition having a pH of no more than about 3.5. When the cinnamic acid derivative is present at an amount greater than 0.5%, the composition further comprises a surfactant in an amount of 1.5% to 5.0%. The single-phase solution compositions may also comprise a form of Vitamin E and a surfactant, or a form of Vitamin A and a surfactant.”

Water (43.5%) + L-Ascorbic Acid (15%) + 1,3-Propanediol (45%) + Ferulic Acid (0.5%) + Phenoxyethanol (0.5%) + Sodium Hyaluronate (800-1200 kDa) (0.5%)

Also this adds up to 105%, I’m guessing there’s a typo in there though.

[Adamnfineman]

From my experience I found that a high level of occlusive agents can hamper penetration by forming a layer between the skin and the active ingredients.

I tried to make a cooling massage oil that was 84% mineral oil with 10% menthol and there was no cooling effect at all. I made a post about it here and the forum concluded that the mineral oil was inhibiting the menthol from coming in contact with skin.

[Adamnfineman]

PhilGeis said:

I like any of the three to the left

@PhilGeis Thank you for the advice. I was thinking of choosing Saligerm G-2 but I ended up going with 1% Jeecide AA instead. I didn’t like the idea of FA donors in a leave-on product that would be used at least twice daily.

Squinny said:

Hi there just a comment on adding the Colloidal Oatmeal - I just weigh out and add this in the oil phase ingredients (it doesnt dissolve but it doesnt turn gloopy or clump like it can if you add to water phase). It might not be right technically but it works for me and is easily incorporated when you emulsify the phases. 

@Squinny Thanks for the tip! In my most recent batches, I start by dispersing it in 10% of the water (instead of the original 20%) and letting it mix while I start on the rest of the formula. In the cooldown phase around 55C I add it in and homogenize for 15 minutes. Thankfully it seems to be fully dispersed and I haven’t had any issues with clumping.

[Adamnfineman]

I just checked and we have these in stock right now:

What combination of either of these would you recommend using?

Spectrastat G2 Natural MB - Caprylhydroxamic Acid (and) Glyceryl Caprylate (and) Glycerin

TeraStat N - Caprylyl Glyceryl Ether (and) Caprylhydroxamic Acid (and) Propanediol

Saligerm G-2 - ropylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Methylparaben (and) Propylparaben

Sharomix DMP - Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Methylparaben (and) Propylparaben (and) Propylene Glycol

Germaben II - Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Methylparaben (and) Propylparaben

[Adamnfineman]

I’ll make the next batch with an antifungal and a chelator to be safe. So far no irritation on the non-eczema affected skin I tested. I’ll try again on a couple eczema patches and see how that goes.

[Adamnfineman]

@PhilGeis I forgot to mention in my comment but I homogenized for 15 minutes at 6000rpm after adding the oatmeal slurry to help the emulsion stabilize. Would disodium EDTA or sodium phytate work best to chelate here? How can I tell if the PE 9010 isn’t enough without sending it off to a lab?

This was for personal use so I just used one of the 8oz glass jars we use for stability tests. I know pumps would be the safer packaging but it would also lead to wasted product. This would be used up quickly if there aren’t any issues with irritation.

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard That’s a bit of a relief then. I’ve heard of the studies claiming sensitization and irritation but we use PE 9010 in a lot of products so I trust it too. 

[Adamnfineman]

*pH was 5.87

[Adamnfineman]

(Purified Water

Acrylamide/Sodium Acrylate Copolymer (and) Paraffinum Liquidum (and) Trideceth-6) Heat to 75C

(Stearic Acid

Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Polysorbate 60

Cetyl Alcohol

Glyceryl Stearate)

(Glycerin

Petrolatum

Shea Butter

Mineral Oil

Dimethicone

Glycereth-26) Cool down to 50C

( 20% Water

1% Colloidal Oatmeal USP)

(Sodium PCA (and) Wheat Amino Acids (and) Panthenol (and) Glycerin (and) Sodium Hyaluronate (and) Hydroxyproline

0.5% Phenoxyethanol (and) Ethylhexygycerin

Triethanolamine) I made a batch with these ingredients and got a nice feeling moisturizing cream that felt very similar to cetaphil’s product. It was thick enough to put in a jar and covered the skin nicely but didn’t feel too heavy. I added the ingredients one at a time but I put parentheses around the ones I added in back to back quickly. I’ll see how the eczema reacts with the Euxyl PE 9010 and might change it later.

[Adamnfineman]

I forgot to ask

4. What preservative system would be good to use here? I would want it to be good enough to preserve the colloidal oatmeal but not possibly irritating.

[Adamnfineman]

grapefruit22 said:

Have you tried to dissolve menthol in a polar oil, e.g. caprylic/capric triglyceride?

I haven’t but I can make a batch of that soon and update on the results. I can only mess around with batches during my downtime at work and we’ve been swamped for the past week so I haven’t had a chance to try anything new.

Squinny said:

If it is meant to be a cooling massage oil why don’t you use Peppermint Essential Oil rather than Tea Tree Oil (or a combo of Tea Tree with Peppermint to your usage rate of 1.5%)

The product was meant to have a cooling effect but not as the main function it would’ve been marketed as an anti-inflammatory muscle pain relief. I included tea tree oil because it was in the previous formula due to its analgesic properties. I could make a blend with peppermint oil but I didn’t think it needed it because I assumed the menthol provide more than enough cooling.

Pb610 said:

From what I understand mineral oil is an occlusive, which means it forms a barrier on the skin, rather than soaking into it. So probably only a small fraction of your active ingredients are pressing against the skin, while the rest are encapsulated by or resting on top of the oil.

So based on this I would have to replace the mineral oil with a non-occlusive oil that can soak into the skin and allow the active ingredients to make contact? Do you know which oil would work for this?

ketchito said:

Unfortunately, the polarity of the ingredients you mentioned are way far from that of water. As someone suggested later in this thread, small glycols like glycerin or PPG should also work.

I was thinking of scrapping the whole idea of an oil based product and making a standard o/w lotion instead. I know that would definitely have a cooling effect but I hate to give up on something once I set my mind to it. 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. May you have long days and pleasant nights. 

[Adamnfineman]

ngarayeva001 said:

 “Disclaimer: in some parts of the world, hand sanitisers are viewed as pharmaceutical / medicinal products. The formulation provided in this blog post is for home-use only and has not been tested for efficacy”.

I’m glad the FDA removed the temporary guidance allowing non-drug manufacturers to make hand sanitizer. I saw a lot of these “natural” DIY sanitizer recipes floating around and I wished I could do something about it.

I think it’s interesting that they changed the article almost a year after posting it. Maybe they got a lot of backlash related to their excuse for a hand sanitizer. The note at the bottom of the page now reads:

“Please note that this post, first published on 5th March, 2020, was updated in January 2021 to clarify that the formulations presented here are classed as hand cleansers and not sanitisers.”

[Adamnfineman]

Good morning @francisa
Does your disodium edta dissolve in water? Have you tried dissolving it before the other ingredients?

[Adamnfineman]

GeorgeBenson said:

perhaps there is a specific method needed to add the glycol stearate/glycol distearate?

@GeorgeBenson
When we make pearlized body washes we don’t use a suspending agent but I was given one specific instruction. My boss said to keep the batch above 80C for at least 5-10 minutes then cool slowly while slowly mixing. 

Is that similar to your methods?

[Adamnfineman]

grapefruit22 said:

Have you tried to dissolve menthol in a polar oil, e.g. caprylic/capric triglyceride?

ketchito said:

@Adamnfineman I believe you need a more polar media for menthol to exert its cooling action. For instance, water base shampoos that use as little as 0.05% of Menthol, already show a perceivable effect on scalp.

@grapefruit22 @ketchito
Would the mixture of soybean oil, beeswax, ozokerite wax, coconut oil, and shea butter I used un the previous batch be considered a polar enough media?

Squinny said:

If it is meant to be a cooling massage oil why don’t you use Peppermint Essential Oil rather than Tea Tree Oil (or a combo of Tea Tree with Peppermint to your usage rate of 1.5%). I find Peppermint Essential Oil has a definite cooling effect and smells better than Tea Tree too. Just a suggestion but make a small amount and see?

@Squinny
It was meant to be an anti-inflammatory massage oil to aid in pain relief. The tea tree oil was in there to boost the anti-inflammatory effect because I though I’d have enough cooling from the menthol.

Pb610 said:

Mineral oil, especially at an 80% concentration, would probably block a lot of your active ingredients from working into the skin, though I’m not certain.

@Pb610  
Do you have any literature about why this happens? or a list of other oils with this effect?

Thank you for your replies

[Adamnfineman]

Shabbat shalom,
I can now share the formula as I got some permission.

83.4% Mineral Oil
10% Menthol
4% Camphor
0.1% Butylated Hydroxytoluene 
1% CBD Isolate
1.5% Tea Tree Oil

Mineral Oil is added into the main beaker followed by the rest of the ingredients at room temperature (22C) while mixing, one at a time after the previous ingredient has dissolved. The product is clear and colorless with no floating solids.

The anticipated result is a cooling effect and increased circulation. The perceived result is of a light oil without a cooling any cooling effect. Once this was noticed I added 1% Frescolat MGA to the batch and did not notice any change in the cooling.

I was basing this off a previous formula where the 83% of mineral oil was instead a mixture of soybean oil, beeswax, ozokerite wax, coconut oil, and shea butter. The previous formula had the consistency of a balm and had a noticeable cooling effect. The goal of the new formula was to bring that effect to the consistency of a light massage oil.

Does anyone have an idea as to why this is not working?

Thank you for your time

[Adamnfineman]

mikeylamar said:

Syl said:

If niacinamide exacerbates your ezcema or cause irritation you want to remove it. Dermatitis usually get worse with continued exposure to irritants.

Is niacinamide the most likely irritant here? I would love to try patch test each individual ingredient but I don’t know how I’d even do that.

I would recommend doing a knockout test to see what’s causing your problems. Here’s Perry’s article about them:

https://chemistscorner.com/do-you-know-the-fastest-way-to-become-an-expert-cosmetic-formulator/

[Adamnfineman]

I would agree but the camphor and menthol both fully dissolved without any heating. The final product is clear and colorless so it would be easy for me to see any solids floating about. I’m pretty sure the Frescolat MGA also dissolved since I don’t see any separate layer on the surface or bottom, but since it’s a clear liquid in a clear liquid I could be mistaken about that.

[Adamnfineman]

@Bill_Toge
I think I have been a bit unclear but I added the frescolat MGA to the mineral oil batch after I realized there was no cooling effect from the menthol. 

Shouldn’t having 10% menthol give some type of cooling effect on its own? The lack of any cooling with or without the Frescolat is what’s puzzling me. There is no tingling or stimulating sensation either, it’s like I just put only mineral oil on my skin.

[Adamnfineman]

Thanks for a good laugh, definitely sending this to my boss.

[Adamnfineman]

If you’re worried about cost have you thought of billing the client for third party stability testing? Obviously be up front with them about the cost beforehand but many clients are willing to pay for professional stability testing if you aren’t able to provide it. 

We have our own equipment in the lab but a few times clients have asked for a third party to also test the stability and we’d tell them the cost ahead of time and bill them for it.