[Adamnfineman]

Hello,

Is that 0.1% EDTA the active matter added or the amount of solution added? If it’s the latter, I would increase it to have at least 0.1% active. Also, someone correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think EHG and EDTA are enough on their own to form a robust preservative system.

When adding up the % I got 92%. Depending on what they are, 8% of additives could greatly affect your viscosity and clarity.

[Adamnfineman]

I second this query. There are some interesting, borderline OTC, claims that I would love for the FDA to take a look at.

[Adamnfineman]

Hi @Nils,

I work at a contract manufacturing company that has developed and produced OTCs for the US, EU, and Asia. We are based in the US and work out of an OTC approved facility following GMP guidelines. I’d love to get you in a meeting with our R&D department to discuss your product and goals.

[Adamnfineman]

We need formula to help with formula.

[Adamnfineman]

Hi @Ron_93,

If you’re in the market for a CM with an R&D lab to help develop this formula you can PM me and I’ll see if our company can be a good fit for you. We’re located in southern Florida and have experience formulating and manufacturing SPF products and other OTCs.

[Adamnfineman]

Have you tried replicating this with other bases? I’d say make a larger batch then split it and try raising the pH with TEA, NaOH, or whatever else you might have on hand.

[Adamnfineman]

<div>Hello,</div>

This oil thickener is pretty decent. We’re able to make a clear oil gel with 3.0% in vegetable oils or in mineral oil. It’s a bit pricey at about $130/kg but it gets the job done better than anything we’ve tried so far.

https://www.ulprospector.com/en/na/PersonalCare/Detail/76/1005367/Oilkemia-5S-polymer?st=1&sl=153741014&crit=a2V5d29yZDpbb2lsa2VtaWFd&ss=2&k=oilkemia&t=oilkemia

ulprospector.com

Oilkemia™ 5S polymer by Lubrizol - Personal Care & Cosmetics

Oilkemia™ 5S polymer is 30% solids in Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides. It is a multifunctional oil soluble rheology modifier designed to impart thickening...

[Adamnfineman]

Hello,

What percent of essential oil and solubilizer are you trying to use?

Have you tried using a mix of Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil? We use a ratio of 1:1:1, Polysorbate 20 : PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil : Oil phase. This gives us a clear product without soaping.

[Adamnfineman]

Hello,

This is quite a coincidence but Lucas Meyer just came to our company yesterday to demonstrate their emulsifiers and gelling agents. They also described how their material, Pro-Lipo Neo, can be used to encapsulate water soluble (up to 10%) or oil soluble (up to 0.2%) actives in liposomes for enhanced penetrations. They showed data from franz diffusion cell tests which claimed that this encapsulation increased the speed and depth of penetration while also reducing TEWL.

Of course there was a modest price tag of ~$300/kg. Not as much as some, but definitely more than others.

[Adamnfineman]

@Pharma
I like that idea, if I ever need to do this I’ll keep that in mind.

[Adamnfineman]

Pharma said:

Why not freeze the excess until you need it?

I didn’t think of that but this is smarter. Having to thaw out the ingredients would be a bit annoying but I guess that’s better than having a preservative in there that might not be compatible with all formulas.

[Adamnfineman]

TeslaPilot said:

I’m trying to conserve usage while formulating my beginner trials. 

Hello,

Are you trying to conserve your ingredients by making solutions so you can use smaller amounts when you make batches? If so this might create an issue (depending on what the ingredient dissolved is) with microbes growing in solutions if you try to store these for extended periods of time. 

If you’re trying to store the solutions you might want to add a preservative to them to stop this. 

[Adamnfineman]

I’m currently using Dymo’s LabelWriter 450 Twin Turbo. Though I’d recommend their single printer instead because I have never used the second printer. The quality is good enough to put a small logo in the corner and still have the writing be visible.

If all you need is black and white labels for samples and the odd bottle then I think this or something similar or is the most economical choice. You don’t have to buy ink because it prints with heat so just buy a pack of label rolls and you’ll be good to go for months.

[Adamnfineman]

Pattsi said:

My day has been good so far (I guess), thank you for asking, how’s yours?

@Pattsi
I’m also good, a little hungry though. 

Cetaphil, CeraVe, Aveeno, Sebamed, … is fine, just avoid soap-based or soap bar. One has been switching to shower oil and they say it good for them so there’s this option too if budget is no concern. 

Life style adjustment is also advised, no smoking, less alcoholic drinks, more veggies, light exercise regularly, avoid direct sun exposure, avoid stress and no scratching please.

Encourage moisturization.

Keeping track of daily life, make a note which products/foods they have been using/eating. Accurate information would be useful if they were to see dermatologist next time.

Wishing them well very soon.

I’ll relay all of this information to them, thank you. The amount of scratching has been a struggle to deal with but I remind them every time I catch them. They moisturize morning and night and sometimes in between if they feel they need.

I’ll ask them to start logging their food intake and see if making certain changes would help. I’ll pass along your well wishes too, thank you!

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman LOL Thank you! My day has just begun but I bet it is going to be alright

@vitalys
I’m very glad to hear that! ::smiley:

vitalys said:

Re: Cetaphil. It is very simple (which is good). I hope your patient’s skin tolerates SLS - that is good news too. If not, there are plenty of “milder” solutions, including the relatively new surfactants like Lauroyl Glutamic Acid’s salts, which are also known as Amino soaps (very popular in Korea, Japan, etc). What I like is that the formulations based on LGA have low pH and allow you to incorporate some useful actives - acids, etc. They also look very attractive to a user - like a regular clear soap bar. The people with skin problems love it despite the price. 

Did you mean SCI?  According to the ingredient list on amazon and cetaphil’s cite there isn’t any SLS in there. The ingredients are: Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Panthenol, Niacinamide, Pantolactone, Xanthan Gum, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid.

If I do have to make a cleanser for them I will see if I can get some samples of those surfactants. Do you know of a product that includes it so I can take a look?

[Adamnfineman]

As much as I appreciate the help, I’m very disappointed none of you answered question 6. 

[Adamnfineman]

Pattsi said

Keep it simple as they will have to continue for months.

Comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray - yes, comfortable as they will have to apply it 4 times a day. spray - no experience, no comment.

Ceramides and HA or other active is optional, depends on their budget, normal 5% urea cream works well too as long as they apply it regularly.   
You may have to work on their cleanser as well.

If still no improvement, they might have to consult with board certified dermatologist who specialized in people of colour’s skin.

@Pattsi Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I’m going to omit the HA from the next formula but I’ll keep the ceramides because cost isn’t a factor. They use Cetaphil Gentle Skin Cleanser as their body and hand cleanser. I think that’s mild enough, what do you think?

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman
Cithrol PGTL is from Croda and they offer very detailed TDS along with the basic formulations. I find it the easiest w/o emulsifier especially for HIPE (high internal phase emulsion) and you can incorporate up to 80% of water to get stiff gel like cream. As with any other w/o emulsifiers add salts (Mg2SO4, etc), and I highly recommend the homogenization in the end of the process. When you pair it with high HLB emulsifier you will get o/w emulsions. Another alternative could be silicone-based w/o emulsifiers such as Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone. 
Laureths may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you are in the US L-9 from Nikkol (Barnet) and from Omya Kinetik seem to show the best results. L-7 from Protameen. 

@vitalys
Thank you for the tips and suggesting more emulsifiers, I’ve ordered some samples so now we wait. 

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman Probably, you’ll find this clinical report interesting to read

This was a very informative and properly conducted report. Thank you for sending it.

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

I also surmise that the current treatment plan may become too complicated, annoying and inconvenient for your patient, which can lead to nonadherence and failure of the therapy later. 

@vitalys
You hit the nail on the head here, it was a struggle at first to make sure they were adhering to the treatment plan. I will definitely take your advice and look into making just one product that can be quickly and easily applied. 

vitalys said:

Why not formulate a formula that can combine all key actives in one comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray? You may combine the following:
Urea - 10-12%
Glycerol - 7%
Petrolatum up to 10%
Ceramide combo - 3% (as you already use)
Lactic acid -2-3%
Caprilic/Capric triglycerides and/or Stearic acid - as a source of fatty acids to maintain the lipid barriers along with ceramides. 
Squalane -2-3% or Hemisqualane 
You may also consider the use of Laureth-9 or 7 -3-4%(sometimes the latter gives some more pronounced effect) as antipruritic agents. 
In order to make the final product even more efficient and prolong the activity of the active ingredients and keep the occlusive film on the skin, which will work as an artificial protective layer, it would be better to use w/o emulsion with modern w/o emulsifiers as Cithrol PGTL(combining it with Laureths you will get a liquid o/w emulsion for spray application, which will maintain the quite resistant occlusive film) or similar. 
Keep emulsion at pH 4-4.20. Use Triacetin or Triethyl Citrate (better) for Urea stability.

Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I like the idea of a spray on product. We have everything on hand except Laureth-9/7 and Cithrol PGTL.

Though I’ve read about it in several threads here, I’ve never personally made a w/o emulsion. Do you have any tips?

[Adamnfineman]

Syl said:

Keep in mind that many people with eczema have a mutation in a gene that helps the skin maintain a healthy barrier with the external environment. Since their skin barrier is more porous, their immune system overreacts to certain substances, leading to eczema symptoms. Different sorts of situations can trigger disease flares. Medication is usually given to tame the overactive immune response in the form of cream (corticosteroids) for small lesions or IL-13 inhibitors for serious outbreaks. A cream or lotion may be used to help the skin from drying, but is unlikely to cure eczema.

vitalys said:

@Syl It depends on the type of eczema. IL-13 inhibitors are effective in type1 hypersensitivity (it most often manifests in a form of asthma outbreaks, angioedema, anaphylaxis) while corticosteroids play role in therapy as immunosuppressants to inhibit the immune response.  We don’t know the exact diagnosis in this current case. It looks like our colleague deals with some chronic disorder. 

Thank you for the informative responses. They do have a very sensitive immune system, they have many allergies. They occasionally have asthma outbreaks, and angioedema when coming in contact with allergens. They definitely get minor anaphylaxis a few hours after eating shrimp or tomatoes (No matter how many times I tell them not to). 

Abdullah said:

I would say make only one product with 5% petrolatum+ 20% glycerin+ pH 4-4.5+ if you want 0.5% salicylic acid for anti inflammation

Thank you for replying, I might make something simpler like this in the future.

[Adamnfineman]

I think they’re referring to adding the xanthan gum slurry (assuming you’re mixing it with the glycerin) after your emulsion has been made.

Also, did you mean dimethicone? Or are you adding herbicide to your moisturizer?

[Adamnfineman]

Thank you very much. It looks like I have some weekend reading to do : )

[Adamnfineman]

Hi Phil,

Do you happen to know where I can read up on some of this data? A few of our products use phenoxyethanol and polysorbate-80. I was able to find another forum post when looking online but I don’t have access to any of the studies I found except the one sent by the original poster there.

Thank you for your time,

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/inactivation-of-preservatives/

chemistscorner.com

Inactivation of Preservatives - Chemists Corner

Is the inactivation of 2-phenoxyethanol by non-ionic surfactants such as polysorbate 20 or PEG-100 Stearate a very large concern even if those surfactants are used…

[Adamnfineman]

Yeah that price tag has been a major hindrance. I’m interested in reading up on some niosome forming materials if you know of any blends or separate materials can be used to form them. I hadn’t even heard of niosomes until your reply.

[Adamnfineman]

I haven’t had the pleasure to look into it as deeply as you have so I don’t know very much about the “normal” amount of encapsulation. I’m just regurgitating the information that was still bouncing around my brain. If you know of other, more effective liposome creating ingredients please let me know.

One of my coworkers is trying to implement Pro-Lipo Neo into a couple existing formulations. However, due to the % of active to be encapsulated he’s looking for more effective or less costly options.

[Adamnfineman]

Another finishing ingredient….that takes things to a level…that is almost breathtaking…is distarch phosphate. I worked through a list of powders that can fill a room, during my deodorant project…and absolutely made a breakthrough when I came upon this Agrana product.

Hi @Graillotion ,

I’m interested in trying distarch phosphate in a moisturizing cream we’re working on. Right now, we’re using Caress BN15 (Boron Nitride) to provide a lasting silky skinfeel. I see that Agrana says this material gives a smooth and creamy texture to emulsions. I was hoping you’d take the time to answer a few questions about it.

Have you tried it in an emulsion? If so, how did it affect the texture?

How would you describe the difference the distarch phosphate made in your formula?

Which trade name of distarch phosphate did you end up using? I see there’s a handful of them and not all seem like they’d be applicable in the way I’m looking for.

Thank you for your time.