[Adamnfineman]

Hello,

This is quite a coincidence but Lucas Meyer just came to our company yesterday to demonstrate their emulsifiers and gelling agents. They also described how their material, Pro-Lipo Neo, can be used to encapsulate water soluble (up to 10%) or oil soluble (up to 0.2%) actives in liposomes for enhanced penetrations. They showed data from franz diffusion cell tests which claimed that this encapsulation increased the speed and depth of penetration while also reducing TEWL.

Of course there was a modest price tag of ~$300/kg. Not as much as some, but definitely more than others.

[Adamnfineman]

@Pharma
I like that idea, if I ever need to do this I’ll keep that in mind.

[Adamnfineman]

Pharma said:

Why not freeze the excess until you need it?

I didn’t think of that but this is smarter. Having to thaw out the ingredients would be a bit annoying but I guess that’s better than having a preservative in there that might not be compatible with all formulas.

[Adamnfineman]

TeslaPilot said:

I’m trying to conserve usage while formulating my beginner trials. 

Hello,

Are you trying to conserve your ingredients by making solutions so you can use smaller amounts when you make batches? If so this might create an issue (depending on what the ingredient dissolved is) with microbes growing in solutions if you try to store these for extended periods of time. 

If you’re trying to store the solutions you might want to add a preservative to them to stop this. 

[Adamnfineman]

I’m currently using Dymo’s LabelWriter 450 Twin Turbo. Though I’d recommend their single printer instead because I have never used the second printer. The quality is good enough to put a small logo in the corner and still have the writing be visible.

If all you need is black and white labels for samples and the odd bottle then I think this or something similar or is the most economical choice. You don’t have to buy ink because it prints with heat so just buy a pack of label rolls and you’ll be good to go for months.

[Adamnfineman]

Pattsi said:

My day has been good so far (I guess), thank you for asking, how’s yours?

@Pattsi
I’m also good, a little hungry though. 

Cetaphil, CeraVe, Aveeno, Sebamed, … is fine, just avoid soap-based or soap bar. One has been switching to shower oil and they say it good for them so there’s this option too if budget is no concern. 

Life style adjustment is also advised, no smoking, less alcoholic drinks, more veggies, light exercise regularly, avoid direct sun exposure, avoid stress and no scratching please.

Encourage moisturization.

Keeping track of daily life, make a note which products/foods they have been using/eating. Accurate information would be useful if they were to see dermatologist next time.

Wishing them well very soon.

I’ll relay all of this information to them, thank you. The amount of scratching has been a struggle to deal with but I remind them every time I catch them. They moisturize morning and night and sometimes in between if they feel they need.

I’ll ask them to start logging their food intake and see if making certain changes would help. I’ll pass along your well wishes too, thank you!

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman LOL Thank you! My day has just begun but I bet it is going to be alright

@vitalys
I’m very glad to hear that! ::smiley:

vitalys said:

Re: Cetaphil. It is very simple (which is good). I hope your patient’s skin tolerates SLS - that is good news too. If not, there are plenty of “milder” solutions, including the relatively new surfactants like Lauroyl Glutamic Acid’s salts, which are also known as Amino soaps (very popular in Korea, Japan, etc). What I like is that the formulations based on LGA have low pH and allow you to incorporate some useful actives - acids, etc. They also look very attractive to a user - like a regular clear soap bar. The people with skin problems love it despite the price. 

Did you mean SCI?  According to the ingredient list on amazon and cetaphil’s cite there isn’t any SLS in there. The ingredients are: Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Panthenol, Niacinamide, Pantolactone, Xanthan Gum, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid.

If I do have to make a cleanser for them I will see if I can get some samples of those surfactants. Do you know of a product that includes it so I can take a look?

[Adamnfineman]

As much as I appreciate the help, I’m very disappointed none of you answered question 6. 

[Adamnfineman]

Pattsi said

Keep it simple as they will have to continue for months.

Comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray - yes, comfortable as they will have to apply it 4 times a day. spray - no experience, no comment.

Ceramides and HA or other active is optional, depends on their budget, normal 5% urea cream works well too as long as they apply it regularly.   
You may have to work on their cleanser as well.

If still no improvement, they might have to consult with board certified dermatologist who specialized in people of colour’s skin.

@Pattsi Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I’m going to omit the HA from the next formula but I’ll keep the ceramides because cost isn’t a factor. They use Cetaphil Gentle Skin Cleanser as their body and hand cleanser. I think that’s mild enough, what do you think?

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman
Cithrol PGTL is from Croda and they offer very detailed TDS along with the basic formulations. I find it the easiest w/o emulsifier especially for HIPE (high internal phase emulsion) and you can incorporate up to 80% of water to get stiff gel like cream. As with any other w/o emulsifiers add salts (Mg2SO4, etc), and I highly recommend the homogenization in the end of the process. When you pair it with high HLB emulsifier you will get o/w emulsions. Another alternative could be silicone-based w/o emulsifiers such as Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone. 
Laureths may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you are in the US L-9 from Nikkol (Barnet) and from Omya Kinetik seem to show the best results. L-7 from Protameen. 

@vitalys
Thank you for the tips and suggesting more emulsifiers, I’ve ordered some samples so now we wait. 

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman Probably, you’ll find this clinical report interesting to read

This was a very informative and properly conducted report. Thank you for sending it.

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

I also surmise that the current treatment plan may become too complicated, annoying and inconvenient for your patient, which can lead to nonadherence and failure of the therapy later. 

@vitalys
You hit the nail on the head here, it was a struggle at first to make sure they were adhering to the treatment plan. I will definitely take your advice and look into making just one product that can be quickly and easily applied. 

vitalys said:

Why not formulate a formula that can combine all key actives in one comfortable cream/lotion or even a spray? You may combine the following:
Urea - 10-12%
Glycerol - 7%
Petrolatum up to 10%
Ceramide combo - 3% (as you already use)
Lactic acid -2-3%
Caprilic/Capric triglycerides and/or Stearic acid - as a source of fatty acids to maintain the lipid barriers along with ceramides. 
Squalane -2-3% or Hemisqualane 
You may also consider the use of Laureth-9 or 7 -3-4%(sometimes the latter gives some more pronounced effect) as antipruritic agents. 
In order to make the final product even more efficient and prolong the activity of the active ingredients and keep the occlusive film on the skin, which will work as an artificial protective layer, it would be better to use w/o emulsion with modern w/o emulsifiers as Cithrol PGTL(combining it with Laureths you will get a liquid o/w emulsion for spray application, which will maintain the quite resistant occlusive film) or similar. 
Keep emulsion at pH 4-4.20. Use Triacetin or Triethyl Citrate (better) for Urea stability.

Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I like the idea of a spray on product. We have everything on hand except Laureth-9/7 and Cithrol PGTL.

Though I’ve read about it in several threads here, I’ve never personally made a w/o emulsion. Do you have any tips?

[Adamnfineman]

Syl said:

Keep in mind that many people with eczema have a mutation in a gene that helps the skin maintain a healthy barrier with the external environment. Since their skin barrier is more porous, their immune system overreacts to certain substances, leading to eczema symptoms. Different sorts of situations can trigger disease flares. Medication is usually given to tame the overactive immune response in the form of cream (corticosteroids) for small lesions or IL-13 inhibitors for serious outbreaks. A cream or lotion may be used to help the skin from drying, but is unlikely to cure eczema.

vitalys said:

@Syl It depends on the type of eczema. IL-13 inhibitors are effective in type1 hypersensitivity (it most often manifests in a form of asthma outbreaks, angioedema, anaphylaxis) while corticosteroids play role in therapy as immunosuppressants to inhibit the immune response.  We don’t know the exact diagnosis in this current case. It looks like our colleague deals with some chronic disorder. 

Thank you for the informative responses. They do have a very sensitive immune system, they have many allergies. They occasionally have asthma outbreaks, and angioedema when coming in contact with allergens. They definitely get minor anaphylaxis a few hours after eating shrimp or tomatoes (No matter how many times I tell them not to). 

Abdullah said:

I would say make only one product with 5% petrolatum+ 20% glycerin+ pH 4-4.5+ if you want 0.5% salicylic acid for anti inflammation

Thank you for replying, I might make something simpler like this in the future.

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman
Re: Oatmeal cream
I would rid of the following:
-Shea butter (stimulates irritation in those with eczematous lesions)
-Oatmeal (can also be additional irritant for the patients with skin diseases)
You may also probably need to replace the preservative system for paraben blends (the current one can be a severe irritant). TEA replace with TRIS Amino or Arginine. 
I would also increase Petrolatum ( up to 7-10% depending on formulation), Glycerin up to 6-7. 

I can remove the shea butter and increase the petrolatum/glycerin. The TEA isn’t actually in the formula my bad, the pH was in an acceptable range without it I forgot to remove it.

I thought oatmeal was recommended to help soothe irritation for people with eczema? I’d like to read up on that, do you have a source for this?

I have heard of sensitization from PE9010 and I was planning on changing preservatives but was reassured by @MarkBroussard in another post that he was working on an eczema suite and this preservative blend was the most well received. Also the paraben blends I tried greatly reduced the viscosity of the emulsion.

[Adamnfineman]

vitalys said:

@Adamnfineman
Eczema (or dermatitis) is a very vague term. What is the exact diagnosis? The treatment will depend on the diagnosis. How do those flare ups look/ Can you describe them in detail? At what parts of the body do those flare ups occur?

Good morning @vitalys,
They were diagnosed with atopic dermatitis, the flare ups occur at the creases of the elbows and knees, on the wrists/hands, on the back of the thighs, on the neck, and on the upper lip. They look like darker patches of rough dry skin, no flaking off skin. They have gone to a dermatologist who has prescribed a 0.05% fluocinonide cream to use if the flare ups become more severe.

I don’t feel comfortable sharing their pictures but this is one from google that is similar.

vitalys said:

A cursory glance - it looks like 40% Urea is too much. This % is usually used on the nails or on the thick skin type (palms or soles). 
I am afraid that this kind of treatment stimulates the skin cells’ turnover instead of results you expect, because Urea at 40% works as a strong keratolytic (reed peeling). Why do you need to slow the skin’s turnover? Does your patient have psoriasis? 

I had originally made a 20% urea cream with similar ingredients but was told that if they tolerated it well I could increase it to 40%. They haven’t had any desquamation from this though. I may be wrong but I thought eczema flare ups were caused by having an impaired skin barrier and the dry skin on the surface is layers of skin prematurely dying. The idea was to remove the dead skin on the surface and moisturize the skin underneath. I assumed if I could keep the skin moisturized it would slow the skin’s turnover.

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard

To be honest I didn’t think Jaycetoww would be selling this serum, but I decided to comment because others in this forum might have tried to make and sell that serum. If it’s for personal use I’m always down to use innovations from big companies, patented or not.

[Adamnfineman]

I think that depends on how you choose to define natural. If you’re going by the COSMOS standard they allow you to claim CAPB is natural depending on how it was sourced. They refer to it in section 7.4.

[Adamnfineman]

MarkBroussard said:

That would be a question for a patent attorney.  The point here is to help Jaycetowww learn how to formulate a serum as his/her proposed formula was simply not going to work.

@MarkBroussard
You’re definitely right about both of these points. Sorry for derailing the post a bit, it wasn’t my intention to argue about technicalities in a patent. I wanted to make sure @Jaycetowww was informed that a patent exists that may apply if he was trying to sell this serum.

I’d rather not get off on the wrong foot with you as I appreciate the experience backed knowledge you’ve provided in many posts. 

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard 

I understand that this is the most effective combination for stabilizing Vitamin C that is covered by the patent. Every one of their claims include the solvent + Vitamin C + Cinnamic Acid derivative, but not every one of their claims includes Vitamin E.

Doesn’t that mean that the formulae without Vitamin E are still covered by the patent even though they are less effective?

[Adamnfineman]

Looking through the list of claims on the patent I see there are many different versions of their formula, with and without Vitamin E, that are covered. It seems like they’re focusing on the solvent + Vitamin C + cinnamic acid derivatives and then expanding that to cover any variations.

[Adamnfineman]

@MarkBroussard

It says it “may also comprise a form of Vitamin E” I assumed that meant the combination of the solvent with Vitamin C and Ferulic Acid was the main purpose of the patent. That last sentence looks like it was put in to cover a broader range of formulae.

[Adamnfineman]

Hi @Jaycetowww 

I just want to point out that the formula that @MarkBroussard shared is patented by L’Oreal. I don’t think you’re planning on making a product to sell commercially but if that’s that case I would find a different formula to use. This particular patent only applies to US territories but I don’t know if they have filed patents in other countries too.

Summary of the patent:
“The present invention relates to single-phase solution compositions of L-ascorbic acid that provide enhanced stability, enhanced solubility and an enhanced photoprotective effect as compared to prior compositions. The single-phase solution compositions comprise by weight 5% to 40% L-ascorbic acid; 0.2% to 5.0% of a cinnamic acid derivative, such as p-coumaric acid, ferulic acid, caffeic acid, sinapinic acid, a derivative thereof, or a combination thereof; 10% to 60% of a solvent comprising a glycol ether and an alkanediol; and water; the composition having a pH of no more than about 3.5. When the cinnamic acid derivative is present at an amount greater than 0.5%, the composition further comprises a surfactant in an amount of 1.5% to 5.0%. The single-phase solution compositions may also comprise a form of Vitamin E and a surfactant, or a form of Vitamin A and a surfactant.”

Water (43.5%) + L-Ascorbic Acid (15%) + 1,3-Propanediol (45%) + Ferulic Acid (0.5%) + Phenoxyethanol (0.5%) + Sodium Hyaluronate (800-1200 kDa) (0.5%)

Also this adds up to 105%, I’m guessing there’s a typo in there though.

[Adamnfineman]

From my experience I found that a high level of occlusive agents can hamper penetration by forming a layer between the skin and the active ingredients.

I tried to make a cooling massage oil that was 84% mineral oil with 10% menthol and there was no cooling effect at all. I made a post about it here and the forum concluded that the mineral oil was inhibiting the menthol from coming in contact with skin.

[Adamnfineman]

PhilGeis said:

I like any of the three to the left

@PhilGeis Thank you for the advice. I was thinking of choosing Saligerm G-2 but I ended up going with 1% Jeecide AA instead. I didn’t like the idea of FA donors in a leave-on product that would be used at least twice daily.

Squinny said:

Hi there just a comment on adding the Colloidal Oatmeal - I just weigh out and add this in the oil phase ingredients (it doesnt dissolve but it doesnt turn gloopy or clump like it can if you add to water phase). It might not be right technically but it works for me and is easily incorporated when you emulsify the phases. 

@Squinny Thanks for the tip! In my most recent batches, I start by dispersing it in 10% of the water (instead of the original 20%) and letting it mix while I start on the rest of the formula. In the cooldown phase around 55C I add it in and homogenize for 15 minutes. Thankfully it seems to be fully dispersed and I haven’t had any issues with clumping.

[Adamnfineman]

Yeah that price tag has been a major hindrance. I’m interested in reading up on some niosome forming materials if you know of any blends or separate materials can be used to form them. I hadn’t even heard of niosomes until your reply.

[Adamnfineman]

I haven’t had the pleasure to look into it as deeply as you have so I don’t know very much about the “normal” amount of encapsulation. I’m just regurgitating the information that was still bouncing around my brain. If you know of other, more effective liposome creating ingredients please let me know.

One of my coworkers is trying to implement Pro-Lipo Neo into a couple existing formulations. However, due to the % of active to be encapsulated he’s looking for more effective or less costly options.

[Adamnfineman]

Another finishing ingredient….that takes things to a level…that is almost breathtaking…is distarch phosphate. I worked through a list of powders that can fill a room, during my deodorant project…and absolutely made a breakthrough when I came upon this Agrana product.

Hi @Graillotion ,

I’m interested in trying distarch phosphate in a moisturizing cream we’re working on. Right now, we’re using Caress BN15 (Boron Nitride) to provide a lasting silky skinfeel. I see that Agrana says this material gives a smooth and creamy texture to emulsions. I was hoping you’d take the time to answer a few questions about it.

Have you tried it in an emulsion? If so, how did it affect the texture?

How would you describe the difference the distarch phosphate made in your formula?

Which trade name of distarch phosphate did you end up using? I see there’s a handful of them and not all seem like they’d be applicable in the way I’m looking for.

Thank you for your time.