[Abdullah]

This is the Ulprospector page that said salicylic acid is more effective than benzoyl peroxide

[Abdullah]

What are you using EDTA for in syndet bar?

How much CAPB are you using because it also has 70% water and too much iron.

I you want to make hard water soft, 600ppm EDTA can make 1 kg water soft.

[Abdullah]

2500ppm DMDM hydantoin correct?

How did you check or know what percentage of formaldehyde is free?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis does this 100-200ppm corelate with how much formaldehyde releaser like DMDM hydantoin we include in product or it will always be 200 ppm formaldehyde no matter if we add 0.1% DMDM hydantoin or 1 percent? 

[Abdullah]

Cosmetic_Chemist said:

I would say it depends on the concentration and also the type of formulation (leave in or rinse off). A rinse off product with 1% for example might just be ineffective against all types of acne.  

Very generally, I think it works best for mild acne (blackheads and whiteheads). 

If you want to counter the very inflamed pus-filled pimples I would suggest trying out Benzoyl Peroxide instead.

Be careful about the claims you make if you want it to be cosmetic grade. 

I was thinking like this too but when i saw this post in Ulprospector that salicylic acid is more effective than benzoyl peroxide for acne that confused me

[Abdullah]

Syl said:

I know of one company; Oneka they are located in Canada.
https://www.onekaelements.com/collections/body-lotion/products/angelica-lavender-body-lotion?variant=33677411090568
 They supply refill stores in California where I live with large containers with pumps of lotions, shampoo, conditioners.. These refill stores cater to the environmentally conscious customer who want to reduce plastic usage and chemicals. From what I observed some bring empty clean containers, other request that the store top off their current almost empty containers of lotion, shampoo, hand wash.. Yuck   Most people take cosmetic preservation for granted, on the other hand the media constantly vilifies chemicals. You would be surprised at how many intelligent people have contacted me to request a shampoo without chemicals…and have left when I told them that everything contains chemicals….
Leucidal is marketed as an innovative product, and people want to believe that you can achieve a natural preservation.

I cant open the link you share again.

Has anyone else faced this problem?

[Abdullah]

What is your water percentage?

[Abdullah]

Air bubbles in emulsion is not good because it will not go away like it does in shampoo so avoid introducing air bubbles

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Abdullah said:

Pharma said:

Maybe, maybe not. Some microbes aren’t visible at way higher amounts, don’t produce neither smell nor gas… just think about yoghurt. You wouldn’t know it’s spoiled milk if you didn’t know what yoghurt actually is.

What about mold? At what amount of contamination it can be visible by eyes? 

Or the other way, if we can see the mold by eyes, what would be the minimum cfu/g of mold in that product? 

You can  seemold if it grows sufficiently on the surface.    Not sure what you mean by minimum - it’s addressed by the same numerical quality limit.

The concept of cfu is not a good one for mold - mycelial fungi.  The cells do not separate so one cfu could represent 19’s-100’s of cells.

What i was saying is can we see for example 10^3 cfu/g of mold by eyes? If no then how much minimum mold should it be there so that we be able to see it by eyes?
If yes then what about 10^2 cfu/g or lower? 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

Maybe, maybe not. Some microbes aren’t visible at way higher amounts, don’t produce neither smell nor gas… just think about yoghurt. You wouldn’t know it’s spoiled milk if you didn’t know what yoghurt actually is.

What about mold? At what amount of contamination it can be visible by eyes? 

Or the other way, if we can see the mold by eyes, what would be the minimum cfu/g of mold in that product? 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

Abdullah said:

…
Does one colony in test means one microb?

Simply said, yes.

I saw a paper that they had collected some cosmetic products from store and tested them for microbes, many of them had microbes in range of 10^5-10^6 cfu/g. 
does consumer know anything from looks or smell of a product that is contaminated with that amount of bacteria or fungi so he can stop using it?

[Abdullah]

Is that pH drift because of sodium phytate? If yes then why? Because sodium phytate doesn’t do so usually. 

Maybe adding a buffer will help.

[Abdullah]

suswang8 said:

MarkBroussard said:

The easiest way to integrate Xathan is to pre-hydrate it with Pentylene Glycol or Propanediol and add it to the water phase with stirring.  As the glycols coating the Xanthan dissolve into the water it exposes the surface of the Xanthan to the water to begin hydration.  These glycols are not as messy to work with as Glycerin.  

Note that this is primarily to prevent the formation of fish eyes and really does not significantly affect the hydration of the Xanthan. 

Does the creation of fish eyes negatively affect things when you go to combine phases (as part of an emulsion)?  Thank you.

Yes

[Abdullah]

1. Glycerin helps prevent the drying of shampoo specially if you are using pump.
2. I don’t think so

[Abdullah]

Thank you all 

The product is shampoo and skin lotion.

Does one colony in test means one microb?

[Abdullah]

Same problem here. I fill 100g lotion in Bottles that can get 130g. 

I think the problem is because we are not filling the bottle or jar completely.

[Abdullah]

Because they are not gentle enough

[Abdullah]

About the combo, it is like this 
1. 0.6% phenoxyethanol+0.25% caprylyl Glycol+0.15% hydroxyacetophenone.

2. 0.7% phenoxyethanol+ 0.2% hydroxyacetophenone+0.1% caprylyl Glycol. 

3. 0.5% phenoxyethanol+0.5% hydroxyacetophenone

[Abdullah]

Cafe33 said:

Abdullah said:

PhilGeis said:

Abdullah said:

@ozgirl no i didn’t read the MSDS of formalin because our local suppliers don’t provide those materials. 

Thanks for the file. 

Do not use any material whose supplier offers no MSDS.  Here;s an msds https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/MSDS/FORMALIN%2037%20PERCENT%20MSDS.PDF

Here suppliers don’t offer MSDS for anything because it is not the norm here. Most of them don’t know English. They even don’t know the details of the product. For example currently i am purchasing SLS liquid locally but they don’t know the active percentage of it so i don’t know it too. I am just guessing it may be 28% active. 

I understand what you have to go through. I had to sort a lot of things out when I started up here in Mexico. Similar situation although the info is available, just have to navigate to get it. Not as simple as downloading a pdf from lotioncrafter’s website.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis i am using the upper recommend level of preservative no matter what the pH is because i don’t do PET test yet.

I just wanted to know how much does preservative efficiency improve at pH 4-5 compared to pH 7 in an appropriate

[Abdullah]

Eugene said:

Abdullah said:

Eugene said:

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

Both preservatives are pH dependent and both will not work good enough at pH 5.3.

As a general rule, if your product pH is above PKa of an organic acid, don’t use that organic acid as main preservative. They may work as helper preservative.

Why don’t you work at pH below 5?

Also if your product is cationic organic acids may not be compatible with it. 

I use ECOmulse as emulsifier, its recomended ph is 5-7.5 …
Naturallythinking.com, where I buy preservative mix, says that sorbate/benzoate has ph range 1- 5.5. After you say they work better on lower PH I made a research on other websites and also found this info.
 the sellers want to sell you whatever they are selling. They will never tell you don’t buy what i am selling because it is not working.

When they say sorbate and benzoate work at pH 1-5.5 they don’t mean it function the same in this range and after that it will directly become inactive. 
They mean up to pH 5.5 you can see some benefit from this preservative. Some benefit doesn’t mean enough benefit. 

For example if you add 0.5% sodium benzoate, at pH 4 it will function like 0.3% preservative but at pH 5.5 like 0.02% preservative. 
Can 0.02% sodium benzoate preserve your product? Never but it will do a little bit if combined with another preservative. 
Did your supplier say what can this preservative do at pH 5.5 or they just said it can work and didn’t say how much?

Do you think it is ok for facial or body cream to have PH lower then 5?
I think it is necessary for facial and body cream to have pH lower than 5 because
1. Skin pH is 4.7.

2. Your skin will recover better from lower pH than higher pH. For example pH 4 is better than 5.5.

3. At lower pH your product will be better preserved so less harm from contamination.

4. At lower pH you will need less preservative compared to higher ph and as preservative is the worst ingredient  in your product (but better than microbes) less of that means better product for skin.

What preservative do you suggest to use, that are approved for “green” products?

I don’t know what green products are but in general i will suggest Paraben+phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoin. 

Thank you!

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

If you hit a precise 1:1 molar ratio, pH would be neutral. Because one usually does not, pH can be higher or lower due to a small excess of acid or base.

NaOH is hygroscopic, thoug in theory 100% pure, it tends to abstract water out of air and ‘gets diluted’ over time.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

Eugene said:

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

Both preservatives are pH dependent and both will not work good enough at pH 5.3.

As a general rule, if your product pH is above PKa of an organic acid, don’t use that organic acid as main preservative. They may work as helper preservative.

Why don’t you work at pH below 5?

Also if your product is cationic organic acids may not be compatible with it. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

No - it’s also supplied at ~10%

Thanks.

This should i definitely ask and find out from supplier. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Abdullah said:

@ozgirl no i didn’t read the MSDS of formalin because our local suppliers don’t provide those materials. 

Thanks for the file. 

Do not use any material whose supplier offers no MSDS.  Here;s an msds https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/MSDS/FORMALIN%2037%20PERCENT%20MSDS.PDF

Here suppliers don’t offer MSDS for anything because it is not the norm here. Most of them don’t know English. They even don’t know the details of the product. For example currently i am purchasing SLS liquid locally but they don’t know the active percentage of it so i don’t know it too. I am just guessing it may be 28% active.