

Abdullah
Forum Replies Created
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 21, 2022 at 1:32 am in reply to: Kathon cg+ DMDM hydantoin as preservative for shampooPhilGeis said:Ask Lonza #’s 1 and 2Thanks
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 20, 2022 at 4:34 pm in reply to: Is it ok to blend kathon cg with water and store for ease of use?@PhilGeis so what is the difference when it is diluted in surfactant solution vs only water solution?
How is it stable in surfactant solution?
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 20, 2022 at 4:30 pm in reply to: Is it ok to blend kathon cg with water and store for ease of use?PhilGeis said:No it is not. MCIT of Kathon CG is stabilized in Mg salt solution - it is unstable in water dilution.Thanks
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 20, 2022 at 2:49 pm in reply to: Kathon cg+ DMDM hydantoin as preservative for shampoo@PhilGeis @Perry
1. this is the composition of Lonzaserve PC. Is this 71% of 55% DMDM hydantoin solution or 71% DMDM hydantoin solid?
What i want to know is how much total formaldehyde is in this mixture.
2. What percentage of Lonzaserve PC would you recommend in a Shampoo? In one file they recommend v0.05-0.2%. in another file they recommended 0.25-0.5%.
3. If i add the same amount of MIT/MCIT and formaldehyde (in form of DMDM hydantoin or formalin) as Lonzaserve PC, would it function the same as Lonzaserve PC?
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Yes it is Glycol distearate
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Graillotion said:Abdullah said:Graillotion said:MarkBroussard said:@Abdullah
Ooops! … My comment did not post. To answer your question:
“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”
Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?
Cost and availability to the small-time operator.
What about zinc gluconate?
When I was in the zinc selection process…I sent my respected advisor a list of candidates. Below is his response, I hope you find this helpful (keep in mind….the topic of discussion…is DEODORANT!). So, his comments might be different in a general skincare context.
Yea, the (Sulfate) monohydrate is like ‘wet’ zinc sulfate. I’d go with that one.
If you want zinc in its free form (which is the one active against microbes), zinc sulfate is the way to go. Also, it’s an INCI ingredient (not sure whether or not the other forms are).
Zinc oxide is a different horse, don’t go with that one.
Zinc gluconate and citrate are weakly chelated… they may be okay for oral supplementation but come with a lower overall zinc content (large chelate molecules) and poor skin permeation. From what I can see, no benefit in cosmetics.
Zinc aspartate and glycinate are amino acid complexes, similar to zinc PCA. However, many commercial amino acid complexes are actually a blend of the amino acid with sulfate salts… depends on the supplier. Bulk supplements isn’t always too straightforward with the exact composition… If you want zinc in your skin instead of on your skin, zinc glycinate would be a good choice and has a higher % of zinc than other organic salts/complexes (zinc aspartate isn’t soluble, forget that one). Zinc picolinate is close to zinc PCA and probably the most stable complex (also most pH tolerant) though I’m not sure what higher amounts of picolinic acid would do to skin (picolinates are great for gastrointestinal absorption and likely show good skin penetration too).
Zinc orotate… too poor solubility, too low amount of overall zinc, and too pricey. I really don’t see any advantage of that one.
Hence, on the skin: zinc sulfate (quite heavily counts as electrolyte), in the skin: zinc glycinate (unless zinc picolinate is an INCI ingredient, both don’t count as electrolytes).Do you mean topical by on skin and oral by in skin?
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ketchito said:Abdullah said:ketchito said:@Abdullah The active part of Zn-PCA is PCA. PCA itself (as most organic acids) is not as soluble in water as it’s salt; that’s why it’s more common to have it as Na-PCA. As @MarkBroussard mentioned, once dissolved in water, salts such as Na-PCA, Zn-PCA or ZnSO4 will completely dissociate in their ions (depending on their solubility constants), since hydration is more thermodinamically favored than keeping the ionic structure, so then you’ll have each single ion in the solution. Again, what matters is to have the PCA part present, since that’s the one with humecting properties.
@Rimshah most extracts have very little antioxidant capacity (with few exceptions)…keep in mind that they have usually metal (ions) traces, which act as catalyst of oxidative properties, so you’d need a more robust antioxidant to protect them.
I thought the active part of zinc PCA is zinc.
https://www.sephora.com/product/the-ordinary-deciem-niacinamide-10-zinc-1-P427417
@Abdullah My bet. I for some reason thought someone mentioned the humectancy, that’s when PCA comes to play. If you want a Zn source for your formula due to its antimicrobial properties (not aware of sebum regulation, but for that, aluminium salts are more effective), then cheaper sources are well…cheaper (except ZnO which is a very stable ionic compound).
Thanks
How do you compare it to zinc gluconate? -
Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 3:18 pm in reply to: Preservative Help - Quickly glance at my conditioner formula?PhilGeis said:Heat in process lowers manufacturing risk.Closure can contribute to/mitigate risk in use. https://journals.asm.org/doi/abs/10.1128/aem.56.5.1476-1479.1990
Very informative. Thanks.
Does plastic type also have any effect?
PET vs HDPEAlso heat up to what degree minimum is beneficial?
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ketchito said:@Abdullah The active part of Zn-PCA is PCA. PCA itself (as most organic acids) is not as soluble in water as it’s salt; that’s why it’s more common to have it as Na-PCA. As @MarkBroussard mentioned, once dissolved in water, salts such as Na-PCA, Zn-PCA or ZnSO4 will completely dissociate in their ions (depending on their solubility constants), since hydration is more thermodinamically favored than keeping the ionic structure, so then you’ll have each single ion in the solution. Again, what matters is to have the PCA part present, since that’s the one with humecting properties.
@Rimshah most extracts have very little antioxidant capacity (with few exceptions)…keep in mind that they have usually metal (ions) traces, which act as catalyst of oxidative properties, so you’d need a more robust antioxidant to protect them.
I thought the active part of zinc PCA is zinc.
https://www.sephora.com/product/the-ordinary-deciem-niacinamide-10-zinc-1-P427417
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 9:08 am in reply to: Preservative Help - Quickly glance at my conditioner formula?PhilGeis said:Sorbate alone is not useful and 0.1% is stupid.
Plastic - polyethylene? flip top or screw off?
Heat - how high and is it packed out hot/warm?@p@PhilGeis by “is it packed out hot/warm?”, Did you mean if it is hot or warm when putting in final package?
If so, what is the effect of that on preservative?
Also what is the effect of pet and HDPE plastic on preservative?
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 5:36 am in reply to: Solubility of caprylhydroxamic acid in phenoxyethanol or glycerinGraillotion said:Don’t know the answer to your question…but just gonna toss this out there. Someone in the know…. once whispered in my ear, that said acid is very incompatible with zinc.Just a heads up when formulating with it.
Thanks ????
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What are waxes doing here?
If they are to keep everything together and increase viscosity then you can use EGDS or GMS instead.
They have better skin feel and are better suited for these functions. -
Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 2:19 am in reply to: allantoin: usage above 0.5%, cool down phase or water phase ( lots of conflicting information)Agree with everything @Paprik said. But i would say, this is a broad spectrum preservative but more strong for bacteria and less strong for fungi. In emulsion you need a preservative that is more strong for fungi.
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 1:48 am in reply to: Adding 50% of water phase after emulsion is made, is it ok?@Perry thanks.
One more question
Recently i have experienced that in emulsion if i add the polymer (0.3% xanthan gum) after the emulsion is made, it speeds up the homogenization process a lot because both phases would be water thin and the inline homogenizer can work better. If add 25% water at cool down phase, would it be better to add xanthan gum befor adding this cold water or after it? -
Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 19, 2022 at 1:38 am in reply to: What is nitrogen content in formaldehyde donors?@Perry thanks
What is special about nitrogen that they are mentioned in COA?
I mean why they don’t mention carbon or hydrogen but only nitrogen?
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 18, 2022 at 12:58 am in reply to: How to prevent color change of salicylic acid in a cationic formula?chemicalmatt said:@Abdullah it may seem obvious but: omit the EDTA and try a little citric acid/sodium citrate buffer. Not as good a chelant as EDTA but at the level you describe a little dab will do you and not a viable interferant with the cationics. A little chelating will not harm a cationic formulation, only a lot will.Thanks. I will try citric acid too.
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 18, 2022 at 12:51 am in reply to: Adding 50% of water phase after emulsion is made, is it ok?Perry said:It depends on the system. Yes, you can do this. We used to do this when making a hair conditioner that required heating and cooling. Production times went from 6 hours a batch to 2.5 hours a batch.But we also conducted numerous stability tests to ensure that the production change resulted in a stable product that behaved the same as the standard procedure.
Thanks
Were you adding room temperature water or cold water?
Also, how much water were you adding?
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 17, 2022 at 3:18 pm in reply to: Adding 50% of water phase after emulsion is made, is it ok?ketchito said:@Abdullah As you experienced, that high amount of water should be better added using a homogenizer.Adding some water to speed cool down is a common practice, uually around 20-30%. Now, to know if your process went well, the only thing you can do is to test the stability (4 weeks at 45°C might give you a first look into it). In theory, adding that much water could cause phase inversion, but that depends also on the emulsifier you are using.
Checking with a microscope could also be useful, but at the end, it’s your stability testing the one that matters more.
@ket@ketchito will 50% water in cool down cause phase inversion or 20-30% can cause too?
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Graillotion said:MarkBroussard said:@Abdullah
Ooops! … My comment did not post. To answer your question:
“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”
Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?
Cost and availability to the small-time operator.
What about zinc gluconate?
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MarkBroussard said:@Abdullah
Ooops! … My comment did not post. To answer your question:
“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”
Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?
Some more questions that came to me.
1. An expert here told me that if we combine same ratio of fatty acids+glycerin as a plant oil like coconut oil, it will not function as coconut oil. Also if you apply coconut oil to skin, the glycerin in it will not function as glycerin although it has ~10% glycerin. So how these ions when separated function the same as it was combined?
2. Is it the zinc PCA or zinc sulfate form that is doing the function for which they are being used or just the zinc part?
3. As i don’t have chemistry background, can you tell me why mixing zinc sulfate with sodium PCA turns to Zn, Na, Sulfate and PCA ions dissociated in the aqueous phase and not stay there original form? -
MarkBroussard said:Abdullah said:MarkBroussard saidNo, you will have Zn, Na, Sulfate and PCA ions dissociated in the aqueous phase. They’re all water soluble so you just add to water and stir. On your label you will still need to list the ingredients as Sodium PCA and Zinc Sulfate … you could not claim ZnPCA as an ingredient
So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?
Yes, both Zn PCA and Na PCA are dissociated in solution. The approach described above gives you the same dissociated ions, but if it’s a 50/50 mixture of the two salts, you will have half as much PCA … so, why not just add half as much ZnPCA and you have one less ingredient to purchase.
Thanks
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 15, 2022 at 3:01 pm in reply to: IPBC usage rate in combination with phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoin@PhilGeis 100ppm is the upper limit. Should i use this amount even when combined with phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoin?
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Abdullah
EntrepreneurJanuary 15, 2022 at 2:58 pm in reply to: IPBC usage rate in combination with phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoinPhilGeis said:~100 ppm. Benzoate prob better for shampoos.Thanks a lot
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1 or 2% GMS may help too.
Emulsifier type has a very big roll.
0.6% SSL with 8% oil phase do soap.
3% Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate with 4% oil phase and 0.3% xanthan gum doesn’t soap at all.