[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Prob will be effective - and shampoos in the 1940’s-60 often used formaldehyde.  But it’ll scare today’s folks, and the odort maybe tough to cover.
There are regulatory demands/consttraints on its use - labeling, limit etc. - and may bring some bad press. 
Practical - wouldn’t go over 1000 ppm formaldehyde, prob less - see what works.

@p@PhilGeis do mean 1000ppm free formaldehyde or formalin solution? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis thanks 

Some more questions
1. Should i sanitize the bottles and caps too? 
If yes, in how much contact time will they sanitize? 

2. for tank, should i fill the tank with 100ppm chlorine solution and leave it full for 20 minutes, then rinse it with clean water and continue production?

Or just rinse the walls of tank with 100ppm solution of chlorine and after 20 minutes rinse it with clean water and continue production? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry what were you using henna for?

I also like jojoba oil. I know it works but i don’t use it because of high price. 

@Graillotion why do you like myrrh and frankincense for? 

[Abdullah]

Also should we dilute the bleach in process water or tap water is also ok?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis thanks a lot. 

“Start production - fill with product no more than 6 hours after sanitization.”

Do you mean i should sanitize the equipments no more than 6 hours before each production, then rinse it, then start production?

Equipments are
stainless steel 304 homogenizer

Metal drum(inside painted with car paint to prevent oxidation

Plastic pipes 

Plastic 

I don’t know the type of plastics so i have attached photos

[Abdullah]

Thank you all 

As @grapefruit22 said maybe this shampoo is too harsh because at first day it makes the scalp too dry and you want to just add an oil or lotion to scalp. If we do so, the next day the scalp is less oily than if i apply nothing. It also itches a bit and if i apply some oil after washing the itch is gone.
But as @Perry & @Microformulation said it may not be from sulfate because i am using sulfate at 10.5 & 11% in my other shampoos without any problem. 

The hair feels good. Only scalp at first day feel over stripped and next day very oily and a bit itchy.

This shampoo was made from a premade blend from china that they said it is the same as Plantapon 611 L by BASF. 
They said it has ~61.1%% solids, 42% SLES but didn’t reveal the amount of CAPB and lauryl Glucoside. I used this blend at 24%. So this was my guess that it will have this amount of each surfactants. 

also Plantapon 611 L has one version preserved by high pH and one version has preservative. This supplier said our blend doesn’t have preservative and it has pH 7 too.

i made facewash from this blend at ≤8% total surfactant without any problem. 

any thoughts?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

100 ppm available chlorine  pH ~6.5 BUT NO Lower than 6 is a good sanitizer.  Rinse with process water.

Thanks a lot 

Some clarifications

1. pH not lower than 6. Correct? What if it is above 6.5 or 7?

2. In how much contact time will it sanitize the equipmenta? 

3. By process water, do you mean the filtered water that i use in making products or tap water is also ok?

4. If i sanitize  the pipe with a 100ppm solution, can i store that same solution and reuse it again and again or i can use it just one time? 

5. The suppliers here are like illiterate in knowing the details of product. He was telling me that is this bleach is 28-30 degree. When i asked them, do you mean percentage? He said: we call it degree. I don’t know what percentage means.
Do they mean it has 28-30% chlorine and i should make 100 ppm solution from it?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis Yes hypochlorite or bleach is available in liquid form locally. 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

biofm said:

Theoretically, sodium chloride reacts with sulfuric acid to generate HCl gas. Not sure (or wouldn’t advise) if this chemistry could be used as an antidote for low stomach acid. 

Adding concentrated sulfuric acid to table salt is actually a common way to produce dry HCl in the lab. And no, it does not work in humans because the patient would dissolve before the salt reacted…

Try bitter herbs and spices (as tea or seasoning) best ~20 minutes before eating. This helps to stimulate gastric functions.

Another widespread strategy is betaine hydrochloride.

Thanks a lot

Is ginger and pepper considered bitter?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Under stand the preservative combination but have no experience or data for the minimal CMIT level.

For sanitization - what about hypochlorite?

I have to search if it is available locally.

Is it in powder form or liquid form?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

better idea

Thanks

[Abdullah]

It should be added as last ingredient

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Sorry - my comment before was in ref to both at effective levels.  +

Why not sanitize?  Preservation - even pumped up - fails to poor hygiene. Can you describe your sanitization challenges more specifically.

I really like to use a combination of these two preservatives (formalin+CMIT MIT) for several reasons. 

1. They both have good price. Suitable for types for products i make. Other preservatives, the cheapest one’s like DMDM hydantoin, phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate are at least 4 times more expensive and needs higher amount to be used so increase the price even more.

2. If i use one of these two at higher percentage or there upper limit, they may not be so gentle. But if i combine then and use lower amount they maybe more gentle.

3. The risk of adaptation. So combination is better for this purpose.

4. I don’t see any problem with mixing these too products. Only benefits . So if there is any downside please let me know.

5. These two are the only preservatives available locally. Other preservatives i have to import and purchase in higher quantities. 

6. I already purchased 1kg CMIT MIT but haven’t used them yet.

If you have any suggested usage rate for this combo to start with, i am looking for your advices. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Sorry - my comment before was in ref to both at effective levels.  +

Why not sanitize?  Preservation - even pumped up - fails to poor hygiene. Can you describe your sanitization challenges more specifically.

I have two main problems with sanitization.

1. Purchasing anything with the name alcohol here is difficult to purchase and usually costs a lot. For example purchasing ethanol costs more than CMIT MIT.

2. I use inline homogenizer and it is difficult to sanitize the pipes with ethanol. Or I don’t know the correct way of sanitizing pipes with ethanol.

If i fill the pipes with ethanol then it will need several kgs of ethanol to fill it because i can’t spray inside of pipes.

That will increase the production cost a lot.

I currently wash everything with tap water and detergent properly after use. And also clean it before next use.

any advice would be appreciated

[Abdullah]

@biofm @Mayday thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Why <1 ppm?  Lonza doesn’t offer any data.  This could be marketing BS like so many of the preservative combinations offered as broad spectrum across wide pH range and formulations.
Don’t know the answer.  Stuff is so soluble - maybe you could test with semi quant agar diffusion.

I value what you say.

when about Lonzaserve ID & PC you said very effective and overkill and a novel combination, they got my attention. 

And as i am afraid my manufacturing condition may not be very good (for example i clean the equipments well but don’t sanitize them), i want to use such a blend to prevent manufacturing contaminations and adaptation.

As i currently dont have DMDM hydantoin available, i want to use formalin in equal amount as formaldehyde in DMDM hydantoin.

 Also 1ppm CMIT MIT is the upper recommend level in Lonzaserve PC so i use that amount. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Would not use isothiazolinones in leave on products - sensitization/ risk much more so than phenoxy of DMDM Hydantoin.

Good to know

Thanks a lot ????

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Time might beat kinetics but I wouldn’t.   It’s instable in water solution .  Think your wasting your time with the tiny but of the stuff.

So should i add surfactant first and then CMIT MIT?

[Abdullah]

pH ~5.
Less than 5.1.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Typically is stable in surfactant solution.  Water solution is the problem.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@PhilGeis I agree that formaldehyde in solution has a different behavior and inherent risk compared to the gas. Actually, the mixture formaldehyde-MIT/MCIT-EDTA is the best system I’ve ever tried.

@k@ketchito can i ask which formaldehyde releaser or formaldehyde had you used and how much was quantity of each preservative? 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Couldn’t find it - but should be on its MSDS.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

Karo_lina said:

PhilGeis said:

I know some claim their hydrosols need no preservatives as raw material- since filled hot in sanitized containers.    Even if always effective (doubt that) - time would not be a factor - only exposure to potential contamination (PAO would actually have some validity).
Method (physical) control in manuf doesn’t reasonably do anything for an ex. date. 
“Special production method” challenge them to prove it.

I contacted the supplier and I received this message:
“The tests showed that the hydrosol is stable for at least 2 years after production, the durability of the product may also be influenced by the high content of essential oils, which themselves prevent contamination.”

By high content they mean at least what percentage? They have less than 1% essential oil and that is not enough as preservative. 

[Abdullah]

Isethionate and Glycinate are mild surfactants.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

MurtazaHakim said:

Is proxel 106 a suitable preservative to be used for hand soaps ??? 

No.    It’s formaldehyde with CMIT/MIT.  The formaldehyde is not needed - as it shares efficacy with CMIT.  It’s intended for paints coatings etc. where manufacturing contamination is typically pretty bad and the two strong preservatives help against resistance development..  Think some folks consider formaldehyde presence in head space in can discourages mold.

Do you know the percentage of formaldehyde and CMIT/MIT in proxel 106? @PhilGeis