[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

What is packaging?

It is 120ml bottle with flip top cap and 220ml bottle with Disc top cap. 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

This is a lotion formula for dry skin.
10 People who have used it like it very much and couldn’t tell any difference in mildness or irritation on skin with same formula preserved with 0.5% phenoxyethanol+ 0.15% caprylhydroxamic acid instead of formalin. Changing preservative system to 0.1% formalin is a big cost saving for me. 
My question is about preservation spectrum of formalin at this pH. 

Do i need an anti fungal preservative with 0.1% formalin in this cationic emulsion at pH 4.5 or not?

Formula
Glycerin 12% 
Petrolatum 4% 
Behentrimonium chloride 0.5% active 
GMS 2% 
Cetearyl alcohol 1% 
Lactic acid 0.4% active 
Fragrance 0.05% 
Formalin 0.1%(370ppm formaldehyde)
Water 
pH 4.5 

@Abdullah At that pH and having an organic acid, you might be OK, but maybe someone with more experience could give more perspective.

Just out of curiosity, did you chek the stability of your formula under accelerated stability conditions?

Does 0.4% lactic acid have any microbial effect?

Yes it is very stable.

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

Gentleness is a subjective term. It’s not something you can figure out just by looking at a formula. Unless there are obvious differences (like a solution of 10% SLS vs deionized water) you have to test it with actual users to notice subtle differences. 

I’m also not sure what you mean by “milder for skin protein”. What chemical or physical reaction happens that makes something less mild?

I currently use formula B for adults and baby shampoo. 
10 adult people have tested formula A and all of them agreed that it has better foam than shampoo with formula B but non of them could noticed any irritation or difference in mildness between these two formulas. So formula A looks to be a better replacement for formula B which is currently on sale. 
As this product will be for babies too and 33% of total surfactant in formula A is ALS which is believed to be as irritating as SLS, i am wondering if it will not be mild enough for babies. But as it has more CAPB and less total anionic, it confuses me which one would be milder for skin as adults couldn’t notice the difference and i cant test it on babies and I don’t have equipment to do lab tests for mildness.

Let me tell you what type of mildness i mean in this example. 
I have washed my face twice a day with 10% active SLES solution pH 5, i noticed some discomfort in my face for some minutes or even hours after washing but no damage to my skin in one week use. 
I have also washed my face with 10% active lauryl glucoside solution pH 5, i didn’t feel any irritation or discomfort after washing but after just three days all my face became very dry and flaky that i needed to stop the experiment. 

These two were mild in different ways and damaging in different ways.

The type of mildness or damage to skin i talk about for two shampoo formula is the type i noticed with SLES face wash. 

Sorry that both my English and knowledge about formulation is weak so i cant say the proper words for what i mean. 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah For a fair compariso, you should have made both total anionic and Betaine content similar. I’d go for the ond with more Betaine.

Total surfactant is both 12%. The one with more betaine also has better foam but as it has ammonium lauryl sulfate, i thought it may be less gentle than formula B. .

[Abdullah]

Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

SDS pH 10-11

Do you mean sodium dodecyl sulfate?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

@Abdullah
guess not

Do you know what was the pH or preservative in these products? 

I couldn’t find it in google and in “smartlabel” website they don’t mention any preservative in ingredients list.

[Abdullah]

Was it a preservative free product? 

https://smartlabel.labelinsight.com/product/6091174/ingredients

[Abdullah]

When i make samples, i only keep 30-40g as sample and use the rest of it.

[Abdullah]

CAPB+ APG will remove too much lipids and babies skin produce much less lipids than adults. So drying is a big concern for mildness.

[Abdullah]

Instead of xanthan+ mpg, i suggest guar gum or HPMC. 
They will not need mpg so cost less and less negative effect on foam and viscosity.

[Abdullah]

https://www.lorealparisusa.com/brands/loreal-kids

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Paprik I supposed that MPG  is know ???? and yes it is monopropylen glycol then is it compatible using pq7 in presence of xanthan gum? 
 @Abdullah Sure we have SLES however I will not use it for baby’s shampoo. (accessible “mild” T. A) 

What is the function of mpg? 

SLES: CAPB is less drying than CAPB alone or CAPB: APG. 

L’oreal is using SLES in all baby shampoos. So it should be gentle enough.

[Abdullah]

Yes. Use 1%, lower the pH to ≥4 and add some sodium benzoate and a chelating agent if it is compatible with honeyquat 

[Abdullah]

@ketchito if BTMC has antimicrobial effects, against which microorganisms is it effective? 

Do you know it’s MIC? 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah If you’re refering to ref 6 of the Annex III, that one is for sodium and potassium chlorate which are different than sodium and potassium chloride. There is no restriction for the level of sodium chloride in a cosmetic formula (except for the chemical ones).

Yeah 
My mistake 
Thanks

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Abdullah @Paprik because listed ingredients are accessible however others not sure however what in put you can suggest for baby’s shampoo for the level

 CABB 16%
Coco glucoside 4%
Xanthan gum 0,5%
MPG 4%
Perfume
Preservative 
Water Qsp

  I will try this as start and depends on result may I will change the level of my T. A . 

Do you mean SLES is not accessable? 

What is mpg? 

[Abdullah]

Change the preservative, or add an anti fungal or reduce the pH to 4

[Abdullah]

@ketchito @MariaSibon in ref 6 the upper limit for sodium chloride is 3%. Does it mean we should not use more than 3% NACL in shampoo or face wash? 

[Abdullah]

Agree with @Paprik 

Use an anionic surfactant and Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride.

Without anionic surfactant, removing of cationic polymer would be difficult. 

[Abdullah]

evchem2 said:

comments above make sense to me. On an unrelated note, how do you incorporate both xanthan and cationic guar? Are you worried about any long term instability since you have both anionic and cationic polymer in your formulation?

I have samples from more than a year ago with no problem.  

I add guar first and xanthan last before NACL. 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah 10 people seems like a small number to draw conclusions, especially if part of the group liked formula A, and the other part liked formula B. You could even find this happening if you ask them to evaluate the same formula but with different codes. Are they trained panelists? (trained panelists are constantly trained, evaluated and even “calibrated”).

Some shampoo bars use Stearic acid which can actually deposit on hair in small amounts (I’ve seen that even with fabric softeners), so theoretically it could happen that your stearate is occupying a place where Amodimethicone was supposed to take. Nevertheless, in shampoos, EGMS is already in solid form (flat sheets of EGMS suspended in the product when used as a pearlizer), which reduced it’s chances of deposition.

Thanks
Yes the number is small and not reliable but that is what i can do right now. 

[Abdullah]

CzarXavier said:

Abdullah said:

For viscosity, remove EDTA and reduce fatty alcohols.

I live in AZ which has notoriously bad hard water. Wouldn’t I want to keep the EDTA in this case? 

This is a cationic product. I don’t think hard water will be an issue but you should use filtered water anyway and that is not so hard water. 

In my experience EDTA increase the viscosity of BTMS a lot.

[Abdullah]

@Pharma @PhilGeis thanks a lot. 

[Abdullah]

You can use any amount you want but i think 3% SLMI+ 3% CAPB is very enough.