[Abdullah]

Let me tell you a trick.

If you have low viscosity with 2% BTMS, you can use small amount of EDTA in water phase and it will increase the viscosity a lot without using any other thickener. 

Also i suggest 0.05% NACL for viscosity and stability in BTMS formula.

[Abdullah]

The ratio of fatty alcohol and BTMS in BTMS 25 is at its best for stability and viscosity. Any extra GMS or fatty alcohol will reduce the stability. 

If you are adding GMS with BTMS 25 then it is a good idea to add some high hlb like ceteareth 25 ( i prefer polyglyceryls) too. 

For carbomer with BTMS, you can chick the compatibility. 

[Abdullah]

How much active Alpha olefin sulfonate do you have in formula and how it the foaming of product? 

I think this product should make your hair too oily. Not dry

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Paprik nice explanation however when I used only GMS with CARBOMER I have the same problem.(supposed their is no stability issue for no ionic with anionic not?) 
@Perry what details you need to give better advice?
@Abdullah I fill the product both in room temperature and in higher.
 Yes BTMS 25
 The origin formulation contains GMS and CARBOMER may be increasing their level better then using only BTMS. 

Where did you get original formula from? 

Was it exactly like this? 
Was it also BTMS 25 and not 50?

I think what Paprik says is they ratio of your high hlb and low hlb surfactant. 

You have 2% gms+ 1.5% fatty alcohol and only 0.5% BTMS as high hlb surfactant. 

Have you made a version without GMS and carbomer? 

[Abdullah]

Did you fill the product when it was rome temperature or higher?

Is it BTMS 25?
If yes, as Paprik said it will not be stable. 

Remove carbomer and and GMS and increase BTMS amount if viscosity not enough. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Prob not.  Fungi are ubiquitous.  

Got it
Thanks

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis if i use pump instead of flip top cap for this lotion, will 0.1% formalin or 0.2% DMDM hydantoin be able to protect it from fungi? 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Thanks Prob no diff - maybe little more is it places finger on orifice to close but flip top allows water and gravity-accessed particles when open.
https://journals.asm.org/doi/abs/10.1128/aem.56.5.1476-1479.1990

Thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Disk cap - can you describe?

This one 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Neither helps but prefer the DMDM H for stability.

Thanks 

For caps, which one is better for preservation of product?
Flip top cap or disk top cap?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

You prob do need an antifungal preservative.
The question of formaldehyde is stability.  That’s why the releasers.

Got it 

What if i reduce the pH to 4 with lactic acid? 
Do i still need an anti fungal?

What about 0.2%(0.11% active) DMDM hydantoin at pH 4.5 or 4 as only preservative instead of formalin? 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

@Abdullah For a fair compariso, you should have made both total anionic and Betaine content similar. I’d go for the ond with more Betaine.

Total surfactant is both 12%. The one with more betaine also has better foam but as it has ammonium lauryl sulfate, i thought it may be less gentle than formula B. .

@Abdullah I meant, keep the level of Betaine fixed, as well as the total anionic content. 

It produces better foam at this ratio. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

What is packaging?

It is 120ml bottle with flip top cap and 220ml bottle with Disc top cap. 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

This is a lotion formula for dry skin.
10 People who have used it like it very much and couldn’t tell any difference in mildness or irritation on skin with same formula preserved with 0.5% phenoxyethanol+ 0.15% caprylhydroxamic acid instead of formalin. Changing preservative system to 0.1% formalin is a big cost saving for me. 
My question is about preservation spectrum of formalin at this pH. 

Do i need an anti fungal preservative with 0.1% formalin in this cationic emulsion at pH 4.5 or not?

Formula
Glycerin 12% 
Petrolatum 4% 
Behentrimonium chloride 0.5% active 
GMS 2% 
Cetearyl alcohol 1% 
Lactic acid 0.4% active 
Fragrance 0.05% 
Formalin 0.1%(370ppm formaldehyde)
Water 
pH 4.5 

@Abdullah At that pH and having an organic acid, you might be OK, but maybe someone with more experience could give more perspective.

Just out of curiosity, did you chek the stability of your formula under accelerated stability conditions?

Does 0.4% lactic acid have any microbial effect?

Yes it is very stable.

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

Gentleness is a subjective term. It’s not something you can figure out just by looking at a formula. Unless there are obvious differences (like a solution of 10% SLS vs deionized water) you have to test it with actual users to notice subtle differences. 

I’m also not sure what you mean by “milder for skin protein”. What chemical or physical reaction happens that makes something less mild?

I currently use formula B for adults and baby shampoo. 
10 adult people have tested formula A and all of them agreed that it has better foam than shampoo with formula B but non of them could noticed any irritation or difference in mildness between these two formulas. So formula A looks to be a better replacement for formula B which is currently on sale. 
As this product will be for babies too and 33% of total surfactant in formula A is ALS which is believed to be as irritating as SLS, i am wondering if it will not be mild enough for babies. But as it has more CAPB and less total anionic, it confuses me which one would be milder for skin as adults couldn’t notice the difference and i cant test it on babies and I don’t have equipment to do lab tests for mildness.

Let me tell you what type of mildness i mean in this example. 
I have washed my face twice a day with 10% active SLES solution pH 5, i noticed some discomfort in my face for some minutes or even hours after washing but no damage to my skin in one week use. 
I have also washed my face with 10% active lauryl glucoside solution pH 5, i didn’t feel any irritation or discomfort after washing but after just three days all my face became very dry and flaky that i needed to stop the experiment. 

These two were mild in different ways and damaging in different ways.

The type of mildness or damage to skin i talk about for two shampoo formula is the type i noticed with SLES face wash. 

Sorry that both my English and knowledge about formulation is weak so i cant say the proper words for what i mean. 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah For a fair compariso, you should have made both total anionic and Betaine content similar. I’d go for the ond with more Betaine.

Total surfactant is both 12%. The one with more betaine also has better foam but as it has ammonium lauryl sulfate, i thought it may be less gentle than formula B. .

[Abdullah]

Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

SDS pH 10-11

Do you mean sodium dodecyl sulfate?

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

@Abdullah
guess not

Do you know what was the pH or preservative in these products? 

I couldn’t find it in google and in “smartlabel” website they don’t mention any preservative in ingredients list.

[Abdullah]

Was it a preservative free product? 

https://smartlabel.labelinsight.com/product/6091174/ingredients

[Abdullah]

When i make samples, i only keep 30-40g as sample and use the rest of it.

[Abdullah]

CAPB+ APG will remove too much lipids and babies skin produce much less lipids than adults. So drying is a big concern for mildness.

[Abdullah]

Instead of xanthan+ mpg, i suggest guar gum or HPMC. 
They will not need mpg so cost less and less negative effect on foam and viscosity.

[Abdullah]

https://www.lorealparisusa.com/brands/loreal-kids

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Paprik I supposed that MPG  is know ???? and yes it is monopropylen glycol then is it compatible using pq7 in presence of xanthan gum? 
 @Abdullah Sure we have SLES however I will not use it for baby’s shampoo. (accessible “mild” T. A) 

What is the function of mpg? 

SLES: CAPB is less drying than CAPB alone or CAPB: APG. 

L’oreal is using SLES in all baby shampoos. So it should be gentle enough.