[Abdullah]

What Paprik said+ what is peg 40 doing and what is the emulsifier?

[Abdullah]

Fekher said:

@Abdullah I found a lot of commercial shampoo a Johnson, Souplesse wich have main ingrédient CAPB then glucoside may be you got your result because the level of use of ingredients
@ketchito I tried your suggestion it is just perfect good transperancy, acceptable viscosity… So it is really very precious input thanks a lot. 
 Thanks @Perry @Paprik  @”DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ”   for your comments. 

You can test it yourself. Less than 1% glucoside has no problem with HPMC but higher amount does. As it was from long ago I don’t remember from what amount of APG the problem started. 

You can thicken water will HPMC, then add APG to it and see with how much APG it loses it viscosity. 

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

@Paprik - we just removed the HPMC. It turns out no one could tell a difference and salt worked fine as a thickener

we added it right in the beginning, right after the water and dye and before the surfactants 

Can i ask how much HPMC were you using that no one could notice the difference in foaming?

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)

Can i ask why you were not using HPMC in conditioner when it costs less than HEC and provides much higher viscosity?

[Abdullah]

@Paprik let me tell you a trick. 
Some HPMC thicken instantly when mixed with cold water and some takes a few hours later. Use the version that thickens after a few hours, add it after everything else and before NACL or you can add some of it to NACL solution too( if you are worried about swelling all available water, although it doesn’t matter in my opinion). Final viscosity will be very low but enough to prevent HPMC from precipitation. You can fill bottles very easily  and my even wash the tank very easily because of very low viscosity and product will thicken after a few hours inside the bottles. 

[Abdullah]

SCI  or iselux or sulfosuccinate would be my suggestions. What is cost you less. 

[Abdullah]

Because when i wanted to make sulfate free shampoo, i also did  start with CAPB and APG. So have some experience in it. 

[Abdullah]

On its own, viscosity of decyl glucoside is like glycerin and viscosity of lauryl glucoside is like shea butter. 

[Abdullah]

[Abdullah]

This shampoo would be very drying and not cleaning properly. 

Have you used it for some time continually?

[Abdullah]

That much glucoside may not be compatible with HPMC. You may test it. 

I saw the maximum viscosity with 20% xanthan gum and 80% guar gum. You can test it.

I don’t have experience with carrageenan.

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

I believe lauryl glucoside is even harder to thicken? 

But yeah, better grade of Xanthan Gum would be great. . The standard (200 mesh I believe) is just disgusting stringy and snotty …

caprylyl capryl glucoside is very hard to thicken.
Decyl is hard.
Coco doesn’t effect viscosity much.
Lauryl increases the viscosity. 

[Abdullah]

How much glucoside is there? 
Maybe replacing it with lauryl glucoside will help with some viscosity.

In my opinion the best option is to use xanthan gum+ guar gum. The viscosity will be more than using them alone.

[Abdullah]

MurtazaHakim said:

I am still struggling to decipher the cause of precipitation in my formulation of 4% CHG skin cleanser. The formulation has Lauramine oxide and Alkyl Polyglucoside (Caprylyl Glucoside) as surfactants and Hydroxyethyl Cellulose 100 K grade as the thickener, Glycerine as humectant, colorant, fragrance, Ethanol and 4% CHG as the active ingredient.

Initially I thought that the APG being higher in pH is resulting in higher pH of the final product which in turn is responsible for the precipitation of CHG but the precipitation occurs even after adjusting the pH using citric acid.

I think I need to omit the APG and formulate using only one surfactant mainly Lauramine Oxide which is somewhere neutral in nature.

Your thoughts on this subject would be highly appreciated.

HEC is not very compatible with glucoside

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

USP grade is not needed for this application.  But you should know composition.
pH of dishwashing liquid is typically alkaline (Dawn is 9) as adjusted by e.g. NaOH.  
“Tap” water pH is usually slightly alkaline but can be highly variable.  EPA secondary drinking water standards specifies 6.5-8  https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/drinking-water-regulations-and-contaminants

Should hand dishwashing liquid also have pH 9 or it should be lower to be gentle for skin?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

Paprik said:

https://www.stevenabbott.co.uk/practical-surfactants/cloud-krafft.php

Would this help a bit?

Yes. That was really good.

One more question: 
Does this Krafft point matter when we are making the cleansing product or when we are using it? 

I mean should the temperature be above Krafft point of surfactants during making a shampoo and mixing surfactants to obtain micelles or during washing the hair with that shampoo? 

@Abdullah You have to be above the kraft point of your surfactants to both prevent turbidity and have good detergency (if you’re above the Kraft poing, your micelles core won’t be liquid enough to solubilize anything). Now, in practice, most common detergents have a low Kraft point which means  at room temperature you’ll always be above. Addition of salt and amphoterics also help lowering the Kraft temperature of anionics.

That is good to know because i am using a lot of salt. 

When should i be above Krafft point? 
During manufacturing or during using the product?

[Abdullah]

You forgot to write your formula

[Abdullah]

There is no legal limit. Use whatever amount you like and is not very drying.
How much is drying?
It is different for different surfactants and for different people. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

https://www.stevenabbott.co.uk/practical-surfactants/cloud-krafft.php

Would this help a bit?

Yes. That was really good.

One more question: 
Does this Krafft point matter when we are making the cleansing product or when we are using it? 

I mean should the temperature be above Krafft point of surfactants during making a shampoo and mixing surfactants to obtain micelles or during washing the hair with that shampoo? 

[Abdullah]

Nowadays the most natural sounding emulsifiers are polyglyceryl and polyglycosides.

I like polyglyceryls because they are cheaper. 

[Abdullah]

No it is not recommended. But if it is part of a blend that you have to use then you dont have another option but using it.

[Abdullah]

There is no legal maximum. 

Why you want to use the maximum amount? 

It will cost you more without any good reason.

[Abdullah]

People use less because they like to use less. If you like to use 7% then there is no problem in that.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Sorry - “ops” as in  operations.  

Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Large manufacturers can also use continuous production. 
Also consider the efficiency of op’s -  that big concerns have few manufacturing plants and run these 24/7/365

Thanks 

What does op’s mean?