Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating General Off Topic Would Sodium silicate precipitate like sodium carbonate on fabrics from a liquid laundry detergent?

  • Would Sodium silicate precipitate like sodium carbonate on fabrics from a liquid laundry detergent?

    Posted by Abdullah on December 9, 2022 at 12:37 pm

    If we use sodium silicate instead of Sodium hydroxide in liquid laundry detergent to make it alkaline, would it precipitate on fabrics like sodium carbonate does?

    Abdullah replied 1 year, 6 months ago 2 Members · 10 Replies
  • 10 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    December 10, 2022 at 3:23 am

    @Abdullah Perhaps you mean Calcium carbonate instead of Sodium carbonate? Sodium carbonate is added to reduce water hardness and as a filler in some powder products, but it’s not the best choice to reduce water hardness precisely because of the formation of Calcium carbonate which can accumulate in pipes and deposit on fabrics. I don’t understante the comment about Sodium hudroxide, since to form a carbonate salt, you need to add some carbonate source. Silicates are good alkalinity reservoirs, but initial solubility can be a problem (tends to precipitate). 

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 11, 2022 at 1:10 am

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Perhaps you mean Calcium carbonate instead of Sodium carbonate? Sodium carbonate is added to reduce water hardness and as a filler in some powder products, but it’s not the best choice to reduce water hardness precisely because of the formation of Calcium carbonate which can accumulate in pipes and deposit on fabrics. I don’t understante the comment about Sodium hudroxide, since to form a carbonate salt, you need to add some carbonate source. Silicates are good alkalinity reservoirs, but initial solubility can be a problem (tends to precipitate). 

    Yes calcium carbonate. 

    My question was does silicate also deposit on fabrics or not? 

    I am going to purchase a 48% liquid sodium silicate, will it’s solubility also be a problem? 

    What is the top alkalizer you do suggest? 

    STPP is not so effective. pH sometimes drop to 7 during wash even with high amount of STPP. 
    Sodium hydroxide is very corrosive even when making 500g samples. I can’t imagine how to work with it in large quantities.

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 12, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @Abdullah Sodium silicate can work (check its solubility over time…that you need to test yourself since every system is different), along with STPP. Sodium hydroxide is also used, and within normal use, it shouldn’t be corrosive in final application.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 12, 2022 at 12:25 pm

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Sodium silicate can work (check its solubility over time…that you need to test yourself since every system is different), along with STPP. Sodium hydroxide is also used, and within normal use, it shouldn’t be corrosive in final application.

    I recently made a 500g liquid laundry detergent with LABSA and added 6% of a 10% sodium hydroxide solution mixing with metal tablespoon pH 10-11, after 4-5 minutes of mixing it changed the texture of tablespoon. 

    If i use sodium salicylate and sodium hydroxide together with LABSA, will sodium silicate prevent the corrosion effect of sodium hydroxide and LABSA during production? 

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 11:40 am

    @Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

    As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. I’m attaching a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA.

    To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 11:40 am

    @Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

    As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. I’m attaching a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA.

    To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 13, 2022 at 11:43 am

    @Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

    As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. Here’s a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stepan.com/content/dam/stepan-dot-com/webdam/website-product-documents/product-bulletins/surfactants/BIOSOFTS101.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlo4v1wfb7AhWjHLkGHX6jCW0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3FQr50dubD94EsUzZd6VnY).

    To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 14, 2022 at 4:51 am

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah Could you be a bit more specific when you mention the change in texture of your spoon? Could you try mixing your solution of Sodium hydroxide with the same spoon to see if the phenomena is the same?

    As I told you before, NaOH is commonly used in the industry to neutralize LABSA. Here’s a guide from Stepan, so you can have a reference of the amount needed to neutralize LABSA (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stepan.com/content/dam/stepan-dot-com/webdam/website-product-documents/product-bulletins/surfactants/BIOSOFTS101.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlo4v1wfb7AhWjHLkGHX6jCW0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3FQr50dubD94EsUzZd6VnY).

    To your question, adding Sodium silicate wouldn’t reduce the potency of Sodium hydroxyde, on the contrary.

    It turned the color of spoon into dark grey almost black. 

    Sodium silicate doesn’t reduce the potency of sodium hydroxide but does it reduce it’s corrosion effect on metals?

  • ketchito

    Member
    December 15, 2022 at 11:17 am

    @Abdullah If you’re mixing with a silver spoon, chances are the darkening is due to the presence of hydrogen sulfide, not corrosion from NaOH. Stainelss steel doesn’t show the same behavior as silver (304 is a type of stainless steel commonly used in industrial plants), so you better use a stainless steel spoon, or a plastic one.

    I don’t believe NaOH is your issue, but the only way something else (like Sodium silicate) could reduce the potential corrosiveness of NaOH (again, at the level of dilution you’re using NaOH there shouldn’t be a problem) is if you had a stronger oxidant that could passivate the metal surface.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    December 15, 2022 at 11:32 am

    ketchito said:

    @Abdullah If you’re mixing with a silver spoon, chances are the darkening is due to the presence of hydrogen sulfide, not corrosion from NaOH. Stainelss steel doesn’t show the same behavior as silver (304 is a type of stainless steel commonly used in industrial plants), so you better use a stainless steel spoon, or a plastic one.

    I don’t believe NaOH is your issue, but the only way something else (like Sodium silicate) could reduce the potential corrosiveness of NaOH (again, at the level of dilution you’re using NaOH there shouldn’t be a problem) is if you had a stronger oxidant that could passivate the metal surface.

    Spoon is not silver or ss. I dont know what is the material name but commonly plates and spoons are made from this material. 

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