Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Advanced Questions What preservatives do you use most often?

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 22, 2020 at 7:58 pm

    Since phenonip and germall have different components you can use both if you want a product to be bulletproof. I often do this (germall goes to cool down phase). Regarding lip products, I don’t think germall can be incorporated into an anhydrous balm but if it’s an emulsion you can try. Regarding selling, I think that if you decide to sell you should prioritize safety as much as you can. I assume you buy ingredients from repackagers not from suppliers directly. Ingredients sold by repackagers are compromised from the day one. Big companies can use Euxyl PE 9010 and run PET many times to see if it works (and for them it does) but the same 9010 won’t work for someone who is making at home. Don’t get me wrong, germall is a decent preservative, but have a look into combining it with phenonip in some products.

    If I combine them, I wouldn’t use both at maximum usage rate, or would I? 0.5% Germall Plus is okay to combine with 1% Phenonip? Or too much? I really like the idea of combining preservatives actually. 

  • luiscuevasii

    Member
    November 24, 2020 at 2:39 am

    Formaldehide.

    We have no restrictions, so, in our country drinking water also contains formaldehide.

    Less than 1$/kg, and works like a charm.

  • philgeis

    Member
    November 24, 2020 at 2:17 pm

    Paprik said:

    I’m really struggling with getting a nice preservative. 
    I’ve started with Liquid Germall Plus, but I’m afraid some of my customers won’t and don’t like the fact, that it’s formaldehyde donor. 
    So was looking for something different. I found Euxyl PE 9010. I like it, but the smell is just nah. A new one I tried was Geogard Ultra TM (Gluconolactone (and) Sodium Benzoate (and) Calcium Gluconate), it’s a powder, seems to be super nice and easy to use, but it messes up with my pH. So I tried Microcare DB, seems also nice, it’s EcoCert, BUT the smell! So it’s hard to find one without any smell, “scary” names like Parabens or Formaldehyde and won’t mess up with my products. 

    But as for me, I’m using Liquid Germall Plus the most. 
    Also thinking about Naticide - but I know there’s a smell to it. And it’s expensive. 

    What do you think about Potassium Sorbate & Sodium Benzoate? 

    Certainly a wide range of anticipated levels of efficacy in your suggestions - mostly on the poor side.   Not knowing the product category -I’ll offer that you should assemble a combination of  preservatives (with a chelator like EDTA)  that SHOULD work and confirm with PET.  None of the sytems you desceibed are likely to be as effective as Germall Plus esp. vs Gram negative bacteria.  Organic acids require an appropriately acidic pH and are weak preservatives, esp re. Gram negative bacteria.  Natacide is a combination of unidentified (unknown?) “natural” materials.  Even if effective - you’re offered no assurance that batch to batch compostions will be identical to that you qualified. 
    Why not use phenoxyethanol in combination?

  • pharma

    Member
    November 24, 2020 at 8:42 pm
    Natacide is natamycin, an antifungal antibiotic used for example on cheese.
    Naticide is a mystery blend by Sinerga with a basically empty SDS and where only the stuff not present in it is publicly available. I don’t trust such things…
  • Paprik

    Member
    November 24, 2020 at 9:07 pm

    PhilGeis said:

    Paprik said:

    I’m really struggling with getting a nice preservative. 
    I’ve started with Liquid Germall Plus, but I’m afraid some of my customers won’t and don’t like the fact, that it’s formaldehyde donor. 
    So was looking for something different. I found Euxyl PE 9010. I like it, but the smell is just nah. A new one I tried was Geogard Ultra TM (Gluconolactone (and) Sodium Benzoate (and) Calcium Gluconate), it’s a powder, seems to be super nice and easy to use, but it messes up with my pH. So I tried Microcare DB, seems also nice, it’s EcoCert, BUT the smell! So it’s hard to find one without any smell, “scary” names like Parabens or Formaldehyde and won’t mess up with my products. 

    But as for me, I’m using Liquid Germall Plus the most. 
    Also thinking about Naticide - but I know there’s a smell to it. And it’s expensive. 

    What do you think about Potassium Sorbate & Sodium Benzoate? 

    Certainly a wide range of anticipated levels of efficacy in your suggestions - mostly on the poor side.   Not knowing the product category -I’ll offer that you should assemble a combination of  preservatives (with a chelator like EDTA)  that SHOULD work and confirm with PET.  None of the sytems you desceibed are likely to be as effective as Germall Plus esp. vs Gram negative bacteria.  Organic acids require an appropriately acidic pH and are weak preservatives, esp re. Gram negative bacteria.  Natacide is a combination of unidentified (unknown?) “natural” materials.  Even if effective - you’re offered no assurance that batch to batch compostions will be identical to that you qualified. 
    Why not use phenoxyethanol in combination?

    Thank you for your reply. 
    I am not surprised, that Germall + would be the best. However, if ppl find out, it’s formaldehyde release, they are like WHOOOOOW, slow down. Even those the input is really small and I believe it’s safe. 

    Phenoxyethanol - what would you combine it with? I’m using Euxyl PE  9010, but I’m kind of annoyed by its smell.

    I’m starting my Diploma in formulating soon, so hopefully I’ll know more and better soon :)

  • philgeis

    Member
    November 24, 2020 at 9:34 pm

    Paprik - if you can tke the smell, with 9010 - mayte some Benzoate if the pH workand EDTA.  What’s the product

  • Paprik

    Member
    November 25, 2020 at 12:25 am

    PhilGeis said:

    Paprik - if you can tke the smell, with 9010 - mayte some Benzoate if the pH workand EDTA.  What’s the product

    Ok, will search it up, thank you! ( And yes, I use EDTA ). 
    Usually it’s a cream or serum. So pH around 5-5.5 if that suits my actives. But also trying to formulate facial cleansers now, where the smell doesn’t bother me at all. It’s mostly on leave on products. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 25, 2020 at 6:56 pm

    I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
    I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
    In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

    It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.  :)  

  • philgeis

    Member
    November 25, 2020 at 10:59 pm

    I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
    I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
    In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

    It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.  :)  

    Why phenyl ethyl alcohol?  It targets that same bugsas phenoxyethyl  only less effetively and you still have a fungal gap. 

  • Graillotion

    Member
    November 25, 2020 at 11:35 pm

    PhilGeis said:

    I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
    I don’t recall 9010 having an odor.  Maybe you got a bad batch?
    In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.

    It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.  :)  

    Why phenyl ethyl alcohol?  It targets that same bugsas phenoxyethyl  only less effetively and you still have a fungal gap. 

    Was going after mold, which I was told 9010 had a gap on.  I was not able to use the typical mold inhibitors due to needing to keep the pH around 6.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    November 26, 2020 at 7:38 am

    @emma1985 you can use both at max. These two don’t have same components. You shouldn’t be mixing penonip and euxyl pe9010 at max, as you will go beyond the limit with phenoxyethanol (unless you add less of each and that’s a grey area unless you going to get it through preservative efficacy test) but I am not aware of any reasons why you shouldn’t mix phenonip and germall. Just make sure you add phenonip to heated waterphase and germall to cool down.

  • emma1985

    Member
    November 26, 2020 at 8:32 am

    @emma1985 you can use both at max. These two don’t have same components. You shouldn’t be mixing penonip and euxyl pe9010 at max, as you will go beyond the limit with phenoxyethanol (unless you add less of each and that’s a grey area unless you going to get it through preservative efficacy test) but I am not aware of any reasons why you shouldn’t mix phenonip and germall. Just make sure you add phenonip to heated waterphase and germall to cool down.

    Thank you so so much, again! 🙃

  • Bo77

    Member
    December 6, 2020 at 7:01 pm

    I used Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate , Silver Citrate and Citric Acid, and add another Bacillus Ferment & Saccharomyces Ferment Filtrate  for some extra fungus protection . Very well preserve system (my opinion) Except now everybody and their grandma bashing formaldehyde releasers and SH is one. :-(  :# 

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    December 6, 2020 at 11:29 pm

    If the pH of the end product is below 6.0:

    Gluconolactone + Sodium Benzoate + Phenethyl Alcohol as preservatives, and
    Sodium Glutamate Diacetate + Propanediol and/or Pentylene Glycol as potentiators

  • Graillotion

    Member
    December 13, 2020 at 1:10 am

    If the pH of the end product is below 6.0:

    Gluconolactone + Sodium Benzoate + Phenethyl Alcohol as preservatives, and
    Sodium Glutamate Diacetate + Propanediol and/or Pentylene Glycol as potentiators

    Is Sodium Phytate and acceptable sub for Sodium Glutamate Diacetate?  I already use Propanediol in everything.  Thank you @MarkBroussard.

    Is that doubling up the chelator?  (Gluconolactone and Sodium Glutamate Diacetate)

    Will this work…if pH is just barely below 6?  Thinking 5.5-5.8?

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    December 13, 2020 at 1:49 am

    @Graillotion

    Well, not necessarily … Sodium Phytate can be used a both a pH adjuster and a chelating agent, but I think Sodium Glutamate Diacetate may be a bit better as a chelating agent.

    Yes, Gluconolactone and SGD both function as chelating agents, but neither is expensive an no harm is having both, particularly since Gluconolactone is part of the Sodium Benzoate blend and is not a single, solo ingredient.

  • ifamuj

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 5:45 am

    Perry said:

    DMDM Hydantoin

    Do you use it alone or in combination with some other compound/s?

  • ifamuj

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 5:51 am

    @emma1985, phenonip is a blend of several parabens and phenoxyethanol and needs heating to reduce possibility of some of the parabens migration to oil phase. It’s generally quite robust. Germall has some limitations: heat sensitive, not allowed under some regulations for applications on large areas, and if I am not wrong there are some limitations for spray products. Germall is great with surfactants (doesn’t mess up viscosity) and in formulations where transparency is important.

    1- Can phenonip be used in purely water-based serum? If so, in what manner (since it’s oil-soluble)?
    2- If used in a surfactant based system, how can it be (again) incorporated? Into the surfactant or the water-phase? Would it need heating?

    TIA.

  • ifamuj

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 5:53 am

    Formaldehide.

    We have no restrictions, so, in our country drinking water also contains formaldehide.

    Less than 1$/kg, and works like a charm.

    Which formaldehyde and at what percentage, specifically?

  • philgeis

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 11:45 am

    Think fFormaldehyde releasers - such as Germall, Suttocide, Glydant - would be preferable to formalin.  

  • oldperry

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 1:17 pm

    @ifamuj - It depends on the formula but yes sometimes. But in some systems it was used in combination with parabens. 

  • EiraSh

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 1:59 pm

    Does anyone have experience working with Euxyl K712? How effective is it, combined with trisodium EDTA? Thank you

  • pharma

    Member
    December 14, 2020 at 8:30 pm

    EiraSh said:

    …Euxyl K712? How effective is it, combined with trisodium EDTA?…

    As I already mentioned, this is a standard preservative system for pharmaceutical preparations (water based solutions and oral preparations) and is usually combined with a chelate such as EDTA. It’s fairly effective for ‘edibles’ but I wouldn’t rely on it for room-temp storage over more than a few months without proper testing. It’s a more or less well tolerated minimal requirement combo which isn’t suitable for ad hoc (= DIY) cosmetics and requires thorough testing and the addition of further hurdles if used in a new formulation. BTW several pharmaceutical preparations using this have to be kept at 4°C and/or have a shelf life of a few weeks if no other ‘preservatives’ (e.g. ethanol, polyols) are added. Also, dispenser systems or tubes should be used instead of pots.

  • crillz

    Member
    December 16, 2020 at 2:57 am

    I’m also looking to add a preservative after watching Phil and Perry’s talk which I found very useful.
    I mainly dabble in creams so the pH range around 5.5. Up until now I just used Lexgard Natural (glyceryl caprylate / glyceryl undecylenate.
    I will be doing some tests very soon but thought while the subject is hot I’ll pop the question in case I can either improve beforehand or not waste time with poor options during tests as they are lengthy. 
    On hand I have Lexgard Natural as mentioned, Geogard 221 (benzyl alcohol and dehydroacetic acid) and will look into Liquid germall plus (propylene glycol, diazolidinyl urea and iodopropynyl butylcarbamate) it seems a winner above.
    Does anyone see an issue with a combination of any 2 of these.
    Also another question. When it was mentioned to use 2 preservatives I first presumed, ok go half and half. But am I right by saying I will need the proper recommended dosage of each because they are different ingredients.
    Thanks.

  • philgeis

    Member
    December 16, 2020 at 12:12 pm

    Yes - please use the appropriate recommended concentrations.

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