Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Vehicle Shampoo Help

  • Vehicle Shampoo Help

    Posted by tkg on January 5, 2024 at 6:40 am

    Hello all im new here and new at formulating.

    I am trying to create a car wash shampoo and have done a few iterations. I wanted to know if what I am doing is close to what I am trying to achieve. I want high foam, pH 7 and good cleaning properties.

    FYI i am a backyard chemist with no qualification or no how. Just having fun and enjoying the process.

    At the moment, I am having trouble thickening the shampoo and not getting the high foam I need. I have tried using xantham gum and regular table salt. I have just bought industrial salt and have yet to try it.

    Am I doing this correctly?

    tkg replied 1 month, 2 weeks ago 7 Members · 42 Replies
  • 42 Replies
  • Perry44

    Administrator
    January 5, 2024 at 7:51 am

    At 4% surfactant and wax you are not going to get much foam. Try getting rid of the wax and increasing the surfactant level. You might try doubling the levels you have.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 5, 2024 at 8:02 am

      I want to use the carnauba wax as I want to have the coating affect on the vehicle thus my reason for using it. I will try doubling the amount.

      Would you have any solutions for thickening?

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  tkg.
      • Perry44

        Administrator
        January 6, 2024 at 8:47 am

        You should be able to thicken the system with Sodium Chloride (salt).

        As far as getting foam but also providing a wax film, that doesn’t really work. The more wax you put in a system, the less foam you are going to get. So, if you want more foam, you have to remove the wax (or significantly increase the detergent).

        You can’t really create a good cleanser and have it deliver wax or a coating to the hair. Cleanser are meant to remove things, they are not meant to leave things behind. This is why adding wax is typically done after the car has been cleaned.

        • tkg

          Member
          January 7, 2024 at 12:24 am

          Thanks ill use the salt to thicken it. Would you happen to know an alternate thickener other than salt or xantham gum?

          I see your view on the cleanser and wax, but if I can ask, how do manufactures like Meguirs USA have a wash and wax product? I would have assumed they would have combined the wax with the mixture.

          Thank you for your replies, much appreciated.

          • Perry44

            Administrator
            January 7, 2024 at 9:17 pm

            They just accept a lower foam production formula and accept a cleanser that doesn’t work as well as it should. People mostly can’t tell much difference.
            But if a consumer wants a good waxing result, waxing should be put on after cleansing.

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    January 5, 2024 at 8:24 am

    You’ll need preservation. Suggest Neolone or Dantogard with a chelator such as EDTA.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 5, 2024 at 5:11 pm

      Thanks, researching into preservatives now.

      Are there any raw perservatives i can use? Looking at both Neolone and Dantogard, they look like brand names I cant find easily in my country.

      • PhilGeis

        Member
        January 5, 2024 at 5:19 pm

        Methyl isothiazolinone (MIT) and Dimethyl dimethylol hydantoin (DMDM hydantoin)

        • tkg

          Member
          January 5, 2024 at 6:49 pm

          I looked at both the products and they are hazardous and hard to get for a hobbyists like me. I looked at other alternatives to Methyl and was sent to dodecylguanidine which I cant find from my brief search. From what I found and can source are the below.

          I have access to;

          - Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate
          - Glyceryl Caprylate
          - Leucidal® Liquid
          - Naticide
          - Phenethyl Alc
          - Potassium Sorbate
          - Sodium Benzoate
          - Plantserve
          - Microcare IT

          What would be the preservative you would try for my application from the list?

          Additionally, should be worried about the hazardous risks?

          • PhilGeis

            Member
            January 6, 2024 at 6:03 am

            Some of those are +/- garbage in any use and, if you’re in US, don’t think any are legal in your application. A formaldehyde releaser such as Sodium Hydroxymethyl glycinate with phenoxyethanol might work if your making is reasonably clean, BUT to be legal you need to find versions compliant to relevant biocidal/pesticide regs. - in US, registered as EPA pesticidal preservatives..

            • tkg

              Member
              January 7, 2024 at 12:31 am

              Can I clarify what do you mean by clean? The manufacturing process or the amount of chemicals used?

              What is the reason to add phenoxyethanol to Sodium Hydroxymethyl when Sodium Hydroxymethyl is already a preservative?

              Thank you Philgeis

            • PhilGeis

              Member
              January 7, 2024 at 6:33 am

              As in the microbial encountered in manufacturing - e.g. do you clean and sanitize equipment, control micro content of raw materials?

              Rarely is one preservative enough. In this case, I anticipate the above will not be in control and application will bring water addition. If using only one - use the formaldehyde releaser.

              • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  PhilGeis.
            • tkg

              Member
              January 10, 2024 at 5:58 am

              I don’t sanitize any of my equipment at the moment but I probably should. Would you know the best part/weight I should mix phenoxyethanol with Sodium Hydroxymethyl?

              I have found an a pre-made mix that look ok to use, Euxyl® PE 9010, have you dealt with this perservative?

  • ketchito

    Member
    January 8, 2024 at 8:32 am

    Since your formula has many conceptual issues, it’d be better to get some more academic knowledge before continuing, so you understand what you need to put, what has no reason to be included (rather than a MKT story wich suppliers are very good at), and how to properly mix them. Without the proper knowledge, it’d be hard to know which information is reliable and which one is Just BS. There are a couple of good books to start with: Harry Cosmeticology, and Poucher’s Parfums and (I forgot the full name, but you’ll easily find it).

  • fareloz

    Member
    January 8, 2024 at 8:51 am

    Why not using plain old SLS? And thicken it up with table salt?

    • tkg

      Member
      January 8, 2024 at 6:57 pm

      I wanted to try something different from SLS and found that other manufactuers were using the CFAS, so have tried that.

      Ill have to purchases SLES and try that

  • ozgirl

    Member
    January 8, 2024 at 3:56 pm

    Stepan have a few free starting formulations for Car Wash products on their website.

    https://www.stepan.com/content/stepan-dot-com/en/products-markets/formulation-finders.html

    It might give you an idea of what concentration levels you need to use.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 8, 2024 at 7:01 pm

      This is fantastic, thank you. Great resource.

      I would like to think I am close to the formulas here. Do you have recomendations to find the perservatives that manufactuers use when they just state “perservative?”. The ones ive found dont show the CAS number aswell.

      • ozgirl

        Member
        January 10, 2024 at 2:59 pm

        Your preservative selection will depend on what is available to you and the pH level of your product. Many car wash products tend to be mildly alkaline (pH 8 -11) so require preservatives that work in this pH range.

        Depending on your country there may also be other restrictions (e.g. USA needs to be EPA registered) especially if you are planning to sell the product. If it is for your personal use only then try and find a preservative that works for the specifications of your formula.

        • tkg

          Member
          January 11, 2024 at 5:33 am

          thanks heaps for the advice, i have redirected my searches to preservatives that may work with my pH range.

          I would assume that preservatives i buy from my country would be already approved for use. Looking at a few, they have legal weights that I am allowed to use, so ill keep under their limit.

  • ketchito

    Member
    January 9, 2024 at 7:23 am

    My apologies. I missed the part where it said it’s a car shampoo. There are a few very nice formulating books for that: Advanced cleaning products formulations, and Handbook of detergents part D: formulation.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 10, 2024 at 5:54 am

      Thanks for these resources, I will have a read of them.

  • LeonB

    Member
    January 10, 2024 at 1:11 am

    You will note that the viscosity for the premium car shampoos are not very high. Look into Siloxanes for Hydrophobic action - revert to attached. NS keep in mind the charges, when working with a Non-ionic such as Berol 611 you don’t have to worry to much, although when you incorporate a anionic component (SLS, SLES or Sulphonic Acid based) then the activity of your cationic Siloxane will diminish. I’ll rather add a Carnauba wax into a paste wax for vehicles and not into a shampoo - I’ve obtained very positive results with Siloxanes (for ceramic claims). Regarding the foam Increase active will increase foam, add CAPB (foam booster) is also a good way to increase the foam.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 10, 2024 at 6:28 am

      Siloxanes is a great suggestion for hydrophobic action. When you say ceramic claims do you mean its effectiveness in a layer of siloxane film over the paintwork?

      I have added CAPB and have swapped to SLES to produce the shampoo. Is CAPB enough for your uses or have you added extra like amine oxide?

      Also, what preservatives have you used that work your tests?

      • LeonB

        Member
        January 10, 2024 at 11:25 pm

        This is to show you the effectiveness of the addition of Siloxane to a spray that I’ve developed - see how the water beads after the addition of my spray wax. Remember to check for the charge of your Siloxane - many of them are cationic and as such does not want SLES which has a negative charge - one of my favourite additions are Berol 611, which is a non-ionic and readily biodegradable - the non-ionic component means that it will not interfere with the Cationic Siloxane - then regarding preservative, you should be fine with a CIT/MIT blended preservative. Are you developing a snow foam shampoo, or a hand applied car shampoo?

        • tkg

          Member
          January 11, 2024 at 6:08 am

          wow, the spray works very well in the video. Are you using developing the Siloxane as a detailing spray?

          Thanks for the tip about the charge, I have to do more searching.

          I cannot get Berol 611, or the chemical name Ethoxylated fatty acid alcohol in my country. Do you have a more widely available product that you can recommend? I have found Kathon CG.

          I am developing a hand applied car shampoo.

      • LeonB

        Member
        January 11, 2024 at 4:25 am

        Siloxanes establishes a cross-link with the clear coat of the treated vehicle.

  • LeonB

    Member
    January 10, 2024 at 1:33 am

    You will require a chelating agent - if you aim at a more bio-degradable options, revert to Dissolvine range manufactured by Nouryon, please see attached.

    • tkg

      Member
      January 10, 2024 at 6:35 am

      From the formulas Ive found I don’t see the use of the chelating agent, Is this something of a requirement? Might have only saw 1 or 2 formulas that have used it.

      • PhilGeis

        Member
        January 10, 2024 at 8:06 am

        Chelator is useful in preservation. Not sure its surface safety in your application.

      • LeonB

        Member
        January 10, 2024 at 11:39 pm

        If you intend to make a snow foam as seen in the video - then I’d advise you to add a Chelating agent, the reason is because you dilute the shampoo with water - in many cases from area to area the hardness of water is not the same, and you need to chelate the polyvalent Calcium and Magnesium ions - if you work with hard water you will note that the foam formation is not that great, so by adding a Chelating agent, you basically remove the negative effect of the polyvalent ions - and as such increase your foam formation.

        • tkg

          Member
          January 11, 2024 at 6:12 am

          After the hand applied shampoo I will learn about creating a snow foam. For just a hand applied shampoo do you think a Chelating agent is necessary?

          • LeonB

            Member
            January 11, 2024 at 6:39 am

            If you dilute the shampoo - for instance to 5L, then the polyvalent ions in the water will decrease the formation of foam, regarding SLES - you get various percentages of it, I use the 70% SLES. Start with about 7% SLES with water colour, preservative and work with a salt quantity of 6 - 8% to increase viscosity. Don’t add a Siloxane or the pre-emulsified Carnauba wax. NS if you add to much salt - the viscosity will drop.

            • LeonB

              Member
              January 11, 2024 at 6:47 am

              As test basis, why don’t you try your formula without a chelating agent for now.

            • tkg

              Member
              January 11, 2024 at 5:19 pm

              I tested 6% and 8% on my current batch and have found the viscosity i like which is fantastic! Thank you.

              Ill test another batch tonight without the wax and see how it performs.

              I have yet to add a perservative but i am going to try out the Euxl PE 2010 perservative.

            • LeonB

              Member
              January 12, 2024 at 12:02 am

              I’m happy that you have obtained the desired viscosity! As preservative If available try Microcare IT- add it at 0.1%, Also see if you can find a CIT/MIT with Bronopol blend - this is a good broad spectrum preservative. Try your formula also in a snow canon - you might be pleasantly surprised.

            • LeonB

              Member
              January 12, 2024 at 12:22 am

              Regulatory - please check with your raw material supplier if the raw materials that your are using are allowed in your country (NS where are you situated?)

            • tkg

              Member
              January 14, 2024 at 6:08 am

              I can get MicroIT. Is this preferred over the Euxl ?

              Thanks for all your help.
              Much appreciated.

            • LeonB

              Member
              January 14, 2024 at 11:54 pm

              Can you please send me the technical data sheet for both?

            • tkg

              Member
              January 15, 2024 at 7:05 pm

              Euxl PE 9010

              https://www.chempoint.com/products/download?grade=78120&doctype=sds

              Microcare IT

              https://www.auroracleaning.com.au/cms/uploads/Aurora-Cleaning-Supplies-Microcare-It-preservative-1085.pdf

              Thank you heaps LeonB.

              By the way, i tried with 4% salt and it was too thick and then tried 9% salt. will find something ill settle with.

            • LeonB

              Member
              January 16, 2024 at 6:36 am

              Try the Microcare IT at 0.1% - NS remember to stick to legislation (just make yourself aware - ask you raw material supplier if there are any restrictions in your country or if you want to export)

            • tkg

              Member
              January 17, 2024 at 6:20 am

              ok thanks i will try it out. Thank you heaps!

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