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The low down on soaping…the how’s and why’s (in lotion).
If there is one thing I am passionate about…. I hate lotions that soap…..(create a white residue on skin, and must be worked in with effort. So a couple questions:
1) What ingredients are most likely to cause it? (I suspect the emulsifier is the main culprit?) If it is the emulsifier….which component…as most emulsifiers have more than one ingredient. (I know about Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate).2) I know that dimethicone is the go to solution…. But what I really want to know…from a chemistry point of view….how does dimethicone reduce this phenomena?
Part of the reason I ask….Question 2….is for ulterior motives. I want to attempt to reduce the soaping with natural alternatives to dimethicone. If I do not know how dimethicone works to reduce soaping in lotion….I will have no idea (other than testing) if these products will have a similar effect.I am testing the following two products….
Floramac 10 from Floratech: INCI Name: Ethyl Macadamiate
and
INCI: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables -
32 Replies
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I am not so naïve as to think….all slippery ingredients will have the same effect on soaping. That is why I seek the mechanical means in which dimethicone reduces soaping.
…. Ultimately I would like to duplicate those mechanics…in a natural format….if it can be done. -
I am not a chemist nor anyone who should have particular knowledge of this. But I am also interested in reducing soaping without using dimethicone, which seems like a common problem that no one really has solved.
My hunch is that dimethicone works due to its low surface tension, which breaks up foam. See here. It seems to be mostly lamellar-based emulsifiers that have the soaping issue. The soaping can be reduced somewhat by increasing slip as much as possible to reduce shear stress (which dimethicone can also do), but my hunch is that to eliminate soaping completely would also destabilise the lamellar structure, which eliminates the skin barrier regeneration and moisturisation properties of the lamellar system.
For example, adding less than 1% potassium cetyl phosphate (in addition to the soaping emulsifier) completely eliminated soaping in one experiment, but it also switched the cream from being moisturising to being drying, despite potassium cetyl phosphate being supposedly a gentle emulsifier.
(BTW I’m sure my hunches are complete rubbish and nothing I’ve said is scientifically correct.. as I said, I’m not a chemist!)
Let us know if you have any success reducing the soaping!
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good post
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Thank you for the comments so far…. I read some old posts….and the conclusion was… dimethicone was best….one formulator that tried all the natural routes said… “Dimethicone was 3X better than all other options…” Other options were Plantasens…and Isoamyl’s.
I was hoping….that maybe there was some recent research on new products…that would help me circumvent the dimethicone route.
If I elect to use dimethicone….what is the minimum amount needed to reduce soaping? (Soaping is not major….I am just super adverse to it). Please do not give the rate in cps…hehehe…more like a percentage…. .5%?)
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It’ll depend on your formula but likely 0.5-1% will be enough
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I’ve removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect. I’ve also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.
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caligirl said:I’ve removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect. I’ve also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.
I have decided to go the route of no dimethicone…. After making about 5 batches this week…I have determined it is very sensitive to which emulsifier I use. I have also added… Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and that helped….. a lot.
The 165 emulsifier….and not using stearic to thicken…seems to have done the trick.
I already had daikon seed extract in the formula….but only at 1%.
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Nice! Glyceryl Stearate in your emulsifier gives excellent smooth glide (no drag) that using Stearic Acid (alone) can produce.
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Guys, reducing soaping without dimethicone is extremely hard to achieve if you use fatty acids and fatty alcohols. They would soap, it’s their nature. What you can do is to make a cream-gel type of product where you would achieve viscosity and stabilise the product by using polymeric emulsifiers (it better to be a blend of two or polymeric emulsifier plus some sort of carbomer). It would be a light product, not a heavy cream for dry skin.
Sepiplus 400 gives “silicony” feel without adding silicones. Not my favourite though, I would rather use a combo of Sepimax Zen/Sepinov EMT 10 or Aristoflex AVC/Sodium Carbomer (subject to % of oils).
All sold by lotioncrafter (if you are a hobbyist and need 50gr). -
When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.
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chemicalmatt said:When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.
I tried making my formula with both cetyl esters, and cetyl alcohol, and hated the feel that C Alcohol gave (oily), and loved the feel that C esters gave. I did seem to tame the beast with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables. I am trying to make the formula ( emulsifier: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) without stearic acid….and even at 4% C Esters….just a tad thin. If I sub 1% C Alcohol for C Ester….Will it make it a little thicker…and reduce soaping even more…..(I am essentially at zero now.)
I think what I am asking is…. C Alcohol is more effective at thickening than C Esters….right? (I would prefer to be at a total of 3%…..so would 2% C Ester and 1% C alcohol have at least as much thickening….as 4% C esters?) -
Right, cetyl alcohol is more effective in this regard and I’d also start with replacing 4% cetyl esters with 2 % C esters and 1% C alcohol. But regarding oil gelling and, in my experience or rather my personal preference, skin feel and that’s why I use 1% cetyl alcohol for 0.5% cetyl palmitate or vice versa… Try it out! If you have glyceryl stearate on your shelf, you could give that also a trial.
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Pharma said:Right, cetyl alcohol is more effective in this regard and I’d also start with replacing 4% cetyl esters with 2 % C esters and 1% C alcohol. But regarding oil gelling and, in my experience or rather my personal preference, skin feel and that’s why I use 1% cetyl alcohol for 0.5% cetyl palmitate or vice versa… Try it out! If you have glyceryl stearate on your shelf, you could give that also a trial.
So you would say….try 2% C Alcohol and 1% C Ester? In other words using C Alcohol at a 2 to 1 rate with C Esters?
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No! You like C ester, so go with more of that (2% C ester, 1% C alcohol)
.For my creams, depending on overall feel and requirements, I frequently substitute 0.5% cetyl stearate with 1% cetyl alcohol or 1% cetyl alcohol with 0.5% cetyl stearate. But I don’t do it to improve the lamellar phase but changing melting point of a lamellar phase I already have (because it contains some of both ingredients). That’s a luxury I often have but you don’t. Gosh, I shouldn’t have mentioned it… I can be confusing, sorry!Watch the pendulum, watch the pendulum… you fall asleep & do what I say: Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. :smiley: -
Pharma said:Watch the pendulum, watch the pendulum… you fall asleep & do what I say: Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. :smiley:
Love that you can have a sense of humor when working with the ignorant.
😉
Well…today I will play with my C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, in the mosquito formula…hehehe… So tomorrow I will work on the premium lotion, and try that combo.
I guess I am in no rush….since I can not buy a PET lotion bottle…to save me life. -
@Graillotion I have another theory about why dimethicone helps so well with soaping.
In my case, I believe soaping is coming from polar oils (most vegetable oils are polar while hydrocarbons like mineral oil are non-polar) being in an alkaline environment (e.g. barrier-compromised skin, or skin just out of the bath)… literally saponifying and turning into soap. The more polar the oil, the more likely it will soap. Using less of polar oils should be helpful, but in my case, the polar oils are the ones that perform better in terms of moisturisation.
Dimethicone is non-polar. I wonder if the reason it works so well at eradicating soaping is that it creates a barrier between the polar oil molecules and the alkaline environment, preventing the polar oil from reacting with the alkali and saponifying. I’ve heard cyclomethicone is also ok at reducing soaping but dimethicone is better. Perhaps it works less well than dimethicone because it is more volatile and less “coating”/persistent.
Squalane is non-polar so I was thinking of replacing some polar oil with it but I don’t know if it will be as moisturising. Neossance Hemisqualane (C13-15 Alkane) sounds interesting as a very light ester but it sounds like it’s used more for lightness and high spreading rather than moisturising, while plain squalane is better for moisturisation but is less light (as far as I can find out online, it is similar to caprylic/capric triglyeride but is more unctuous while being less greasy). I need to try them both out.
I wonder if the part success we’ve both had with Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables is due to Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables being squalane wax and thus reducing polarity.
The other thing I’ve heard helps with preventing soaping is adding a low HLB, non-ionic co-emulsifier to reduce saponification. This is why glyceryl stearate (HLB 3.
is recommended alongside Olivem 1000.Anyway, that’s my rambling thoughts typed up with a toddler on my lap… so this is probably full of mistakes.
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helenhelen said:…
In my case, I believe soaping is coming from polar oils (most vegetable oils are polar while hydrocarbons like mineral oil are non-polar) being in an alkaline environment (e.g. barrier-compromised skin, or skin just out of the bath)… literally saponifying and turning into soap….Dimethicone is non-polar. I wonder if the reason it works so well at eradicating soaping is that it creates a barrier between the polar oil molecules and the alkaline environment, preventing the polar oil from reacting with the alkali and saponifying. …
The other thing I’ve heard helps with preventing soaping is adding a low HLB, non-ionic co-emulsifier to reduce saponification. This is why glyceryl stearate (HLB 3. is recommended alongside Olivem 1000.Anyway, that’s my rambling thoughts typed up with a toddler on my lap… so this is probably full of mistakes.
Blunt answer: yes, it is full of mistakes. See, if your skin were alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides ON your skin, it would be alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides IN your skin turning YOU entirely into a giant junk of soap (with a saponified toddler on what once was your lap). BTW the surface of healthy skin is supposed to be slightly acidic.Dimethicone is an anti-foaming agent due to its ‘ultra-lipophilicity’ (it’s oilier than oil). This shifts the equilibrium of the emulsifier. The latter is a surfactant and surfactants soap aka foam if mixed with air and a liquid or emulsify if mixed with two liquids (i.e. water and oil). Dimethicone simply ‘uses up’ the emulsifier crashing it’s low surface tension and destroying foam/emulsion. That’s also the main reason why silicones require silicone emulsifiers to form emulsions.Olivem 1000 is something entirely different. The perception of soaping is not caused by the same effect. Here, I don’t know how it comes to ‘soaping’ (it’s not a chemical reaction, though!). Adding glyceryl stearate boosts its potential to build a lamellar structure aka liquid crystal network. I suppose it’s because the better that network, the lower chances become that the emulsion upon application (which means high sheer stress and water evaporation) turns from lamellar to hexagonal or similar (which would then follow the same rules as in the above case). -
Pharma said:
Blunt answer: yes, it is full of mistakes. See, if your skin were alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides ON your skin, it would be alkaline enough to saponify triglycerides IN your skin turning YOU entirely into a giant junk of soap (with a saponified toddler on what once was your lap). BTW the surface of healthy skin is supposed to be slightly acidic.Hi @Pharma. I’m glad I resurrected this thread then! No one had provided this detailed and useful information that you have just done. Obviously, I purposely typed up a load of nonsense so that a professional would feel forced to reply
I agree that healthy skin is slightly acidic, but I do think (perhaps wrongly) it can be less acidic when it’s not healthy or after long term and persistent use of alkaline products (e.g. Lush body moisturisers that are based on stearic acid and triethanolamine) even after washing off, or immediately after a bath (with no product other than water) and towel drying. I have found creams soaping more in these two cases. Maybe that’s not from less acidity but something else. Maybe the bath case is from the additional liquid soaked into the skin.
Pharma said:Dimethicone is an anti-foaming agent due to its ‘ultra-lipophilicity’ (it’s oilier than oil). This shifts the equilibrium of the emulsifier. The latter is a surfactant and surfactants soap aka foam if mixed with air and a liquid or emulsify if mixed with two liquids (i.e. water and oil). Dimethicone simply ‘uses up’ the emulsifier crashing it’s low surface tension and destroying foam/emulsion. That’s also the main reason why silicones require silicone emulsifiers to form emulsions.That’s really interesting. So it’s not purely the “slippiness” of dimethicone that causes it to eliminate soaping? Is the slippiness just a property that comes with being “oilier than oil” but not the reason why it stops the soaping?
If I’ve read this correctly, the “soaping” I see in silicone-free emulsions is the emulsifier/surfactant mixing with air and liquid and thus foaming? Why does non-silicone oil not “use up” the emulsifier in the same way as dimethicone? E.g. in cases where adding more vegetable oil causes more soaping rather than less.
Is there really no non-silicone cosmetic ingredient that comes near dimethicone in terms of anti-foaming?
Pharma said:Olivem 1000 is something entirely different. The perception of soaping is not caused by the same effect. Here, I don’t know how it comes to ‘soaping’ (it’s not a chemical reaction, though!). Adding glyceryl stearate boosts its potential to build a lamellar structure aka liquid crystal network. I suppose it’s because the better that network, the lower chances become that the emulsion upon application (which means high sheer stress and water evaporation) turns from lamellar to hexagonal or similar (which would then follow the same rules as in the above case).Interesting, thank you. I guess now I think about it, the whitening I have seen from a product containing Olivem 1000 was slightly different from the slight whitening I see from other silicone-free emulsions that don’t use Olivem 1000. Olivem 1000 whitening to me was like the product turning into a white paste the more it was rubbed. Whereas the whitening I see from other products is less pasty and disperses easily.
Lots for me to think about, thank you.
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Loving reading this chat!
All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
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Graillotion said:Loving reading this chat! All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
Glad you’ve had success with eliminating the soaping entirely! I tried Isoamyl Laurate as well a long time ago.. I should dig out the sample and try it again actually. In my notes I wrote that it absorbed to a dry touch but left a slight residue. I also tried Ecosilk (Isoamyl Laurate & Isoamyl Cocoate) which is widely sold in Europe (another brand it exists as is Gosulin IL) which I noted left too much of an oily glisten on the skin for my liking. I think I’ve tried at least 80% of the “silicone alternatives” available on the market.. I always fall for the shiny marketing.. still haven’t learnt my lesson
Yes I always find @Pharma ‘s posts extremely helpful - lots of knowledge, tales of first hand experience and non-patronising. Very patient as well. He’d make a good teacher or lecturer
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:Loving reading this chat! All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
Glad you’ve had success with eliminating the soaping entirely!
I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165. -
Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.I’ll have to look into daikon seed. I am planning to try hemisqualane tonight. I also have bamboo bioferment that has yet to be tried. I’ve collected quite a lot of weird ingredients now.. many unopened!
Good luck with your mosquito products. As someone who is super attractive to mosquitoes and also has “skeeter syndrome” (
), I’m always interested in new repellents or treatments. I haven’t yet found any “natural” products strong enough at repelling for me (I can literally be the only person in a group of 200 people that gets bitten), but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. They were my best option after DEET which is horrible stuff. -
helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.I’ll have to look into daikon seed. I am planning to try hemisqualane tonight. I also have bamboo bioferment that has yet to be tried. I’ve collected quite a lot of weird ingredients now.. many unopened!
Good luck with your mosquito products. As someone who is super attractive to mosquitoes and also has “skeeter syndrome” (
), I’m always interested in new repellents or treatments. I haven’t yet found any “natural” products strong enough at repelling for me (I can literally be the only person in a group of 200 people that gets bitten), but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. They were my best option after DEET which is horrible stuff.Do you live in the US?
I took a novel, vs traditional approach to a non-DEET product. EO’s have been done a million times….no need to repeat what has already been done and failed. INNOVATE don’t repeat!
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. .
Have you been able to purchase these in small quantities (as ingredients) ?
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Graillotion said:Do you live in the US?
I live in the UK but I lived in the US for a few years.
Graillotion said:I took a novel, vs traditional approach to a non-DEET product. EO’s have been done a million times….no need to repeat what has already been done and failed. INNOVATE don’t repeat!Yes, completely agree on this approach! I never liked the EO repellents. They never worked and they smell bad. One time one particular brand must have reacted with the chemicals/oils/sweat on my skin because it ended up smelling of vomit. I was visiting friends and we were trying to work out what the disgusting smell was.. before we realised it was me :#:smiley:
Graillotion said:but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. .Have you been able to purchase these in small quantities (as ingredients) ?
I meant I find them effective as a consumer! My favourite one is the Jungle Formula Kids one because it’s completely odourless and leaves no residue. It’s marketed as a kids repellent but I use it on myself as well. It also says it gives lower protection than DEET but I find it just as effective as 20% DEET.
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