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TEA soap are they irritant in shampoo?
I’am thinking of making liquid soap using TEA as neutralizer for fatty acids, my aim is to have better ,softer and less irritant soap compairing with koh soap.
So if any one have an idea or experience about TEA soap i will be thankfull.
@Perry @Chemist77 @Gunther @Belassi -
21 Replies
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Soaps are bad shampoos. There is plenty of documentation about it.
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I agree with @DAS Soap makes a terrible shampoo. Modern detergents are used because soap was so terrible to use.
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If you can access Lubrizol site, they have some very good starting formulas based on fatty acid hand wash soaps like lifebuoy (not shampoos). You can then try replacing some NaOH/KOH with TEA there. You need a robust system to provide stability to this kind of soap/surfactant system.
Good luck. -
Triethanolamine is a strong base
https://atomscientific.com/product/Triethanolamine_99
http://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Triethanolamineso its soaps will likely be as alkaline in solution as Sodium or Potassium ones.
You can try to see if they actually feel any better than Na or K.If you can get the free fatty acids (i.e. distilled)
you can try neutralizing them with Ammonia solution
I tried it with oleic acid and Ammonium soap feels so much better than Na or K.Please be aware than ammonia ain’t strong enough to saponify oils or fats (albeit triethanolamine might be), just enough to neutralize fatty acids.
This says Ammonium oleate solutions have slightly acidic pH, unlike the alkaline Sodium or Potassium soaps:
Acidic salts, such as AMMONIUM OLEATE, are generally soluble in water. The resulting solutions contain moderate concentrations of hydrogen ions and have pH’s of less than 7.0. They react as acids to neutralize bases. These neutralizations generate heat, but less or far less than is generated by neutralization of inorganic acids, inorganic oxoacids, and carboxylic acid. They usually do not react as either oxidizing agents or reducing agents but such behavior is not impossible. Many of these compounds catalyze organic reactions.
https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/8256 -
@Perry @Das really appriciate your feedback however their is even famous indusrialized shampoo where all his surfactants are only soap you can verify from that link product is in Amazon and in descreption you can understand it can be used for hair.
https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Bronners-Organic-Castile-Liquid/dp/B000TGC5TO -
Saponified soaps can be used as shampoos but as @Perry has pointed out, they are arguably not the best product as surfactant based products have a more appropriate pH and are not affected by the water quality. Yes, we can find examples where they are used and even examples where they are somewhat popular in certain niche markets. In that case, the Marketing and the market bias towards synthetic raw materials make them successful, not any pronounced advantage in the performance of the final product.
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thanks @Microformulation such comment is useful
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Always helpful @Chemist77
@Gunther about acidity the problem can be solved with adding suitable quantity of citric acid . -
In a true saponified soap, you will be unable to adjust the pH much below 8 (some wiggle room) before the soap fails and becomes unstable. Simply, soaps are not stable at lower ph levels, such as you can achieve with a surfactant system.
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The aim of that neutralization is having product more soft and less irritant then Koh soap and it will be better if it gives no irritant eyes product. One from surpise i find about TEA soap that it gives quaternuim product @Microformulation where trough saponification TEA pass from tertiary amine to quaternuim trough liason with carboxylate of fatty acid so that gives hair conditionner product.
I read about Amine soap that give condionner and sfot product however i know that quaternuim are verry irritant product, so TEA Soap may can be quaternuin and not very irritant ? that question i’am thinking about .
I will make a try for sure just need developping idea now. -
This discussion has given me the idea of trying TEA as the neutraliser for the sulphate-free shampoo I make. I have to neutralise the Akypo RLM45, a carboxylic acid, with NaOH. I will try a small batch using TEA instead (adjusting the mol rate accordingly)
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That gives me honnor @Belassi and it is one from my goals to give each others new ideas , solutions and inspiration.
wish all sucess for you.
Don’t forget to share your experiences and i will for sure also, and using TEA for free sulfate product it is really one of my reason to do TEA soap. -
@Fekher I will qualify one thing. In the US, Soaps were exempted from the Cosmetics Act, so they are not a huge focus for Cosmetic Chemists in the US. We do use some of the concepts of soapmaking, but in general, many of us are limited to academic training.I have worked with several “soapers” and my impression is that NaOH and KOH are the most common neutralizers. Their impact on irritation is reduced my PROPERLY doing the math either manually or with one of many Soap Calculators available. Much of the “gentleness” perceived by these products is delivered by “superfatting” the soap. (Read up on that, I have already exhausted much of my knowledge).@mikethair is likely the most qualified to weigh-in on this one. He is successfully (as judged by sales) making a soap based shampoo that sells in his market.
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@Fekher the big problem is that adding an acid to bring down the soap pH
reverts it to the free fatty acid (insoluble in water, and not cleaning as soap is):Na-fatty acid soap + citric (or lactic acid) —> free fatty acid + Sodium citrate (or lactate)
Ammonium soaps seem to tolerate a lower pH than Sodium or Potassium soaps, without decomposing as previously stated.
In fact, you shouldn’t allow Ammonium soaps pH to rise as they decompose:
Ammonium fatty acid soap + NaOH —-> Sodium fatty acid salt + Ammonia
On a side note
I wonder if Ammonium Laureth sulfate has a lower ionization than SLES does.
I’m tempted to buy some ALES to compare it head to head with SLES.@Belassi praises the ammonium based Plantaren APB blend.
I wonder if ammonium salts make most of the difference, or if it’s actually related to proper Lauryl-Laureth-Lauramide ratios being used. -
I have a pre-blend of potassium cocoate, cocamide MEA and sodium citrate. I use it for my soap based hand wash liquid mixed with other surfactants and the product is great. No issues of maintaining a higher pH too, i keep it under 8 and the product as such is pretty much stable.
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@Chemist77 it is one of my future project making blend of soap surfactants and free sulfates synthetics surfactants and see what it will gives.
Just i wanna do it by trying TEA soap in place of yours made by potassuim soap.
But i want start by seeing pure TEA soap what it will give? (may it will be blend of coconut oil , olive olil and Mais oil).
@Gunther soo happy by your intersting reactions but i did not able to understand the problelm of TEA soap with citric acid. Can you explain me more? -
The problem is that at lower pH levels, strong acids (citric or lactic acid) displace the weaker acids (fatty acids) out of the salt (soap).
Thus they revert to the insoluble and non-surfactant fatty acids + Sodium citrate.
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@Fekher you can research shaving creams, mild ones are basically oils and TEA. There’s plenty of experimentation since it’s become a trend, it could save you time, and you can easily find documentation.
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@Gunther moderate add of citric acid just to adjust ph near 7 will not break soap i already tested with koh soap and even with adding suitable quantity of citric acid soap is good .
About process i know that cold process will be more secure however it may will need a lot of days for complete reaction “if it is like koh and Naoh saponification” i’am not sure from how time it needs for TEA soap. So for accelerating reaction hot process will be the solution however heating TEA can be harmfull . So what is the better process cold or hot cause even with some research i couldn’t make the choice .
@Das if you put link i will be thankful. -
While pH 7 is OK, it’s still far from optimal for hair or skin.
I believe that it’s better to start R&D testing with free fatty acids, instead of saponiying oils.
Best if you can get some distilled fatty acids, so they match what’s available commercially, and they’re cheaper than vegetable oils.
If not, oleic acid works fine
IMO stick to liquid fatty acids, and avoid those that need heating to melt (i.e. stearic acid).Then you can try neutralizing the fatty acids with Sodium, Potassium hydroxide, Triethanolamine, Ammonia, etc
(to avoid smelly fumes, use a closed bottle when neutralizing with ammonia)Once you develop a proper soap
you can consider either making soap from distilled fatty acids
or hydrolyzing oils with acid to make fatty acids yourself, then neutralizing them with a base.This expired patent advises to use Sulfur dioxide to avoid yellowing from saponifying unsaturated acids with triethanolamine.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2754305A/en -
@Gunther very intersting the fact of using distilled fatty acide for reducing cost however the question will distilled fatty acid have the same benifits of vegetable oils and the process of distillation will not use unhealthy reactifs?
About avoid yellowing i think that it is very advanced level ☺…
For the moment i just need to know if we can make hot process using TEA and what should be the maximum temperature ?
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