Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Shampoo separating with hydroxyethl cellulose

  • Shampoo separating with hydroxyethl cellulose

    Posted by curlycorner on January 13, 2020 at 11:06 am

    hi All,

    i have been trying to formulate liquid shampoo featuring hydroxyethl cellulose as thickeners. I believe the thickener Is causing it because if I do keep out the thickener, it doesn’t desperate (white frothy liquid at top and clear liquid at the bottom). If it is indeed the thickener, is there any other alternative? I do not like crothix due to PEG ingredients. Is there any other liquid thickener I could use? Open to suggestions/alteration on the formula too.

    water to 100%
    aleo vera juice - 4%
    glycerine - 3%
    Dissolvine gl chelating agent - 2%
    panthenol - 1%
    Allantoin powder - 1%
    herbals - 2.5%

    surfactants:
    cocamidopropyl betaine - 24%
    SCI - 8%
    lauryl glucoside - 7%
    decyl glucoside - 5%
    lamesoft po 65 - 3%

    oils - 2%
    essential oils - 1%
    tocopherol - 0.2%
    phenoxyethanol - 1%
    soduim benzoate and potassium airbags - 1.5%
    dehydroacetic and benzyl alcohol - 1.1%
    cellulose gum (INCI - hydroxyethyl cellulose , sodium acetate,isopropanol) - 1%
    citric acid - 0.2%

    thanking you all in advance for your input :)

    Karina replied 7 months, 3 weeks ago 6 Members · 12 Replies
  • 12 Replies
  • pharma

    Member
    January 13, 2020 at 7:52 pm
    Can’t tell you why ;( . But I have some questions, if you don’t mind me asking:
    Why allantoin and why so much? It won’t do anything in a shampoo (much like panthenol and glycerine, the herbals at least give the product some claim).
    Why so much Dissolvine GL?
    What is potassium airbags?
    Your product seems nearly over-preserved… do you really need that much?
    Why citric acid? Is it for pH adjustments (it’s probably not added as sequestrant since you already use Dissolvine)? What pH does your shampoo have?
    Why do you decided to go with HEC as a gelling agent?
    Did you try salt as thickener? From what I’ve heard, it sometimes works with SCI (and sometimes not). Or switch to sodium lauroyl methyl isethionate (or any other acyl methyl isethionate) which is said to thicken very well with salt or betaine and ditch HEC.
  • curlycorner

    Member
    January 13, 2020 at 9:56 pm

    Thank you for replying pharma :).

    - allantoin there to treat dandruff and dry scalp. I guess 0.5% will still be effective ?
    - 2% is the recommended usage rate for dissolvine GL I believe
    - sorry potassium airbag was a typo - meant to be potassium sorbat
    - will be using fermented rice water so making sure that I have a broad spectrum there to protect against moulds etc…
    - HEC seems to give a nice thickness compare to other thickeners. Will try thickening with salt see how that goes.

    do you think I could lower the preservatives and still be protected ?

    thanks 

  • pharma

    Member
    January 15, 2020 at 7:39 pm
    - Allantoin won’t do anything in a shampoo. If you want a product against dandruff and dry scalp, use it in a leaf-in product (0.1-0.5% is common).
    - If you use Dissolvine GL as a preservative booster & sequestrant, then 0.1% is all you need. More may help with better lather when dealing with hard water or when you use tap water instead of demineralised water in your product.
    - Fermented rice water… okay, I see why you go for that better safe than sorry option. What’s the pH of your shampoo?
    You’d have to challenge test your product to know if it’s good, too much or not enough ;) .
  • belassi

    Member
    January 15, 2020 at 10:48 pm

    Way too many preservatives. I use just 0.4% sodium benzoate at pH 5.0 to preserve a shampoo that’s based on percolated coffee. (You have no doubt seen how mould grows on coffee if it’s left for a few days?) I recently discovered a half-used bottle my daughter left behind 8 months ago. Still perfect.
    aloe vera juice in shampoo? waste of money.
    Lamesoft PO65? 3% is too much. Use 1%.
    Oils 2%? Get rid of them, terrible for cleaning and also viscosity.
    EO at 1%? Too much. Use 0.4%
    Cocamide MEA at 1.25% will enhance foam and viscosity.
    There is an excellent liquid thickener, I use it, and it enhances preservation too since it has propanediol. Glucamate VLT. But you will not like the price.

  • curlycorner

    Member
    January 17, 2020 at 6:10 am

    Thank you for your advice Belassi for your advice. I will prepare a test batch of your suggestions. The coffee scenario gives me hope :)

    I have checked out the thickener and it seems to contain PEG which I am trying to avoid :( INCI: PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Trioleate (and) Propanediol and most importantly cannot get it in the U.K. 

  • curlycorner

    Member
    January 17, 2020 at 7:29 pm

    Pharma said:

    - Allantoin won’t do anything in a shampoo. If you want a product against dandruff and dry scalp, use it in a leaf-in product (0.1-0.5% is common).
    - If you use Dissolvine GL as a preservative booster & sequestrant, then 0.1% is all you need. More may help with better lather when dealing with hard water or when you use tap water instead of demineralised water in your product.
    - Fermented rice water… okay, I see why you go for that better safe than sorry option. What’s the pH of your shampoo?
    You’d have to challenge test your product to know if it’s good, too much or not enough ;) .

    Ph is around 6.7 and adjusted to 5.5 with citric acid. 

    Thank you for your input @Pharma

  • pharma

    Member
    January 17, 2020 at 8:38 pm
    pH 5.5 ain’t bad. I thought that maybe you’ve got something around 7 and hence the many preservatives (though some of which only work at <5.5).
    Personally, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that many preservatives. The weakest but also most prone to irritation IMHO is the benzoate/sorbate mix. In addition to that, it’s the one which starts acting below your pH and hence, I would at least ditch that. If you should further decrease your preservatives, I honestly do not know. Keep phenoxyethanol and probably keep benzyl alcohol too but combine it with salicylic acid instead of dehydroacetic acid (but you’re using a blend, I suppose)?
  • curlycorner

    Member
    January 18, 2020 at 6:10 pm

    @Pharma , benzyl alcohol and  dehydroacetic is a blend unfortunately. What is the advantages of having salicylic acid over dehydroacetic acid? 

    Also thought benzoate and sorbate were active at 5.5 ph?

  • pharma

    Member
    January 18, 2020 at 7:18 pm
    Dehydroacetic acid was/is one of the first ‘alternative’ preservatives though it’s a quite old compound which just sounds natural but isn’t and hence is mainly good for ‘free from’ claims. It’s somewhat outdated due to too poor performance compared to toxicity concerns but still got a revival because of that ‘free from’ boom.
    Salicylic acid is said to be safer and more efficient than benzoic acid and it’s certainly safer than dehydroacetic acid and has a similar antimicrobial spectrum but also additional effects such as keratinolysis.
    Correct, benzoate and sorbate are active at pH 5.5 and lower. Bonzoic acid/benzoate has an activity of ~5% and sorbic acid/sorbate of ~15% at pH 5.5 compared to pH 3. Now that I think about it, salicylic acid is piss poor at pH 5.5… dang, don’t use it! Sorry for writing faster than thinking.
  • Jennycat

    Member
    January 21, 2020 at 8:11 pm

    Hi Curlycorner,

    I’ve seen similar things in some of my formulations!

    How did you add the cellulose thickener? We found that if we add it upfront and have proper mixing until there is no “fish-eye” like chuncks before adding in surfactants would help with the separation. Another thing that seemed to help is using warm water (60 °C) to disperse the hydroxyethyl cellulose. 

  • Quimico

    Member
    January 26, 2020 at 12:19 pm

    betaine - 24% is too much 

    • Karina

      Member
      July 4, 2023 at 12:25 am

      I agree. You don’t need that much active matter in your shampoo.

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