Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating How much Polyquaternium-7 in shampoo?

  • How much Polyquaternium-7 in shampoo?

    Posted by Gunther on May 20, 2019 at 9:20 pm

    Many formulas mention using 0.5-1%
    but is that 1% in an active basis, or 1% as-supplied?

    I just realized commercial PQ-7 is only about 9% active matter, so it makes a huge difference.

    Aziz replied 4 years, 12 months ago 7 Members · 13 Replies
  • 13 Replies
  • OldPerry

    Member
    May 20, 2019 at 9:47 pm

    We always used it as supplied. You don’t need a lot of polymer to get an effect.  Of course, I never found PQ-7 particularly conditioning in a shampoo formula.

  • ozgirl

    Member
    May 20, 2019 at 9:57 pm

    We also use it at up to 1% as supplied.

  • sven

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 2:50 pm

    PQ 7 1% as supplied. PQ 10 0.5%

  • bahey

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 4:16 pm
    what’s happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?
  • bahey

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 4:22 pm

    Perry said:

    We always used it as supplied. You don’t need a lot of polymer to get an effect.  Of course, I never found PQ-7 particularly conditioning in a shampoo formula.

    could you suggest shampoo formula without anything you thinks it’s useless ?

  • OldPerry

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:29 pm

    @bahey - In my experience, Dimethicone has a measurable effect.  Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride may work better that PQ7.  Also PQ10 is a good option.

    ,"y":1192,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2758}”>But just because I don’t find PQ7 particularly impressive in the formula I was working with doesn’t mean you will have the same experience. It’s used by a lot of formulators. Unfortunately, I think a lot of formulators just put ingredients in because they trust what suppliers are saying.

    ,"y":1306,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2872}”>The most important thing is to experiment and take measurements. Test your formulations (on a blinded basis) and see if you can tell a difference with and without an ingredient. Don’t rely on supplier information or even the declarations of formulators on this forum to shape your final opinions. 

    ,"y":1420,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2986}”>And when you run experiments, come back here and post your results so we can all advance the science.

    ,"y":1477,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":3043}”>Cosmetic science suffers from lots of motivated research, anecdotes and secrecy. There is surprisingly little controlled, unbiased published research. A forum like this can change it but only if people are willing to experiment, learn, and share.

  • Aziz

    Member
    May 21, 2019 at 6:30 pm

    bahey said:

    what’s happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?

    It will form a heavy build up . It will make unpleasant  wet and dry conditions.  

  • bahey

    Member
    May 22, 2019 at 12:23 pm

    Perry said:

    @bahey - In my experience, Dimethicone has a measurable effect.  Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride may work better that PQ7.  Also PQ10 is a good option.

    ,"y":1192,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2758}”>But just because I don’t find PQ7 particularly impressive in the formula I was working with doesn’t mean you will have the same experience. It’s used by a lot of formulators. Unfortunately, I think a lot of formulators just put ingredients in because they trust what suppliers are saying.

    ,"y":1306,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2872}”>The most important thing is to experiment and take measurements. Test your formulations (on a blinded basis) and see if you can tell a difference with and without an ingredient. Don’t rely on supplier information or even the declarations of formulators on this forum to shape your final opinions. 

    ,"y":1420,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":2986}”>And when you run experiments, come back here and post your results so we can all advance the science.

    ,"y":1477,"w":0,"h":18,"abs_x":384,"abs_y":3043}”>Cosmetic science suffers from lots of motivated research, anecdotes and secrecy. There is surprisingly little controlled, unbiased published research. A forum like this can change it but only if people are willing to experiment, learn, and share.

    ✊ Respect 
    well said

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    May 22, 2019 at 4:14 pm

    I agree with Perry that PQ 10 is better than PQ 7 (better combability for wet hair). Also, PQ 10 adds viscosity which is a great bonus if you are formulating with glucosides or say, sarcosinate.

  • Gunther

    Member
    May 22, 2019 at 7:47 pm

    bahey said:

    what’s happened if i raised pq7 to higher ratios like 2-4 % ?

    Nitesh Rajput advises to use 2-5% (as-supplied)
    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-polyquaternium/ 

    This study used 1% active PQ-7
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392003000400013

    It looks like anionics hinder PQs deposition

    Liquid Detergents
    2nd edition
    edited by Kuo-Yann Lai

    So I wonder if most eveyone is getting mediocre results, just because they are using too little PQ-7?
    1% of a 10% solution is just 0.1% active PQ7.

  • Aziz

    Member
    May 23, 2019 at 5:55 am

    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant.  Here is a screen shot of Poucher’s text book of perfumes and cosmetics.  He used only .25%PQ7 in his formula.  

  • Gunther

    Member
    May 23, 2019 at 11:49 pm

    Aziz said:

    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant. 

      

    Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant by unpleasant?

  • Aziz

    Member
    May 25, 2019 at 4:28 am

    Gunther said:

    Aziz said:

    @Gunther I made a batch with PQ7 2% , it was unpleasant. 

      

    Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant by unpleasant?

    Not soft and silky , a heavy and hard feeling wet and dry combing . 

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