Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Help! Problem with Ceteareth 25

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 3:09 am

    @Chemist77

    The turbidity or the product becomes opaque when I withdraw it from the plastic container in which it deposits and expose it to the open air for a long time (24 hours), the product is still translucent in the plastic container
    Is it because of silicon oil and pvp this phenomenon?
  • belassi

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 4:47 am

    Oh, I see. Well, why are you doing that? I don’t see that there’s anything to oxidise. The fragrance will evaporate and maybe the benzyl alcohol too and it will lose water … it would be surprising if nothing happened wouldn’t it? That class of inertness is reserved for McDonald’s hamburgers.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 12:04 pm

    Your formula includes Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 80 and PEG40 Castor Oil … why all 3 to solubilize 0.5% fragrance.  You might try cutting out a couple of these.

    I would leave the Cocoate in as it can aid in wash-out, but you could probably cut that down to 2%.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 3:35 pm
    Thank you so much for your advice, I will try all that and tell you what happened.
    See you later
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 3:37 pm

    @Belassi Do you consider that the color change (translucent to opaque) is something “normal” in this formulation?

  • belassi

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 3:56 pm

    I’m sorry I can’t comment further, this is a product type I don’t have any experience with.

  • Bill_Toge

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 9:16 pm

    if it doesn’t happen in a closed container, the product is most likely losing water and drying out in the air

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 21, 2017 at 1:49 am

    Exactly @Bill_Toge , it only happens when I leave some of the sample outdoors

    But, is there any way to reduce this?

  • Chemist77

    Member
    July 21, 2017 at 3:58 am

    Start your formula with C-25 @25%, glycerin/pg combined at 15%, preservative, fragrance. You will get a clear and stable product, now you can do the reverse of knock out trials. Add one ingredient at a time and see how it behaves in the formula, mind that silicone or any other polymer like PVP is definitely going to affect the clarity of the solution.
    Good luck.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 21, 2017 at 12:27 pm

    The most simple solution to the product turning opaque when left uncovered is to put the cap back on the jar right after you have used the product.  

    No offense, but leaving the cap off is kind of like peeling bananas and leaving them on the counter and wondering why they keep turning brown.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 22, 2017 at 4:15 am

    jaja No problem @MarkBroussard But if I wanted to know that in case it is lost from moisture, how could I avoid it?

    well, apart from having the container closed

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 23, 2017 at 1:41 am

    I don’t know that this can be avoided per se … to reduce it, you would have to include an ingredient that would bind the water to slow the evaporation.  

    You would have to evaluate the value to you of doing that.  

    Plus, you do want the water to evaporate when the product is placed in hair for the hold to develop.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 23, 2017 at 7:46 pm
    Thank you all for your advice
    I did what he recommended and the appearance has improved a lot, apparently it is also normal to dry the surface of the product outside the container for a long time, but it isn’t a stability problem
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    August 10, 2017 at 12:38 am
    @Chemist77 @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ  @Bill_Toge  @MarkBroussard  @belassi @em88

    Hi everyone, it’s me again

    I have been testing my product with myself and some of my friends
    They tell me that apparently the fixation of the pomade is a little bad and that after washing still leaves the feeling that it is in the hair. With the above I have some questions
    Is it better to use pvp k 30 or k 90? What is the maximum allowed level of pvp in a formulation like this? What could change in the formulation to make the washing a little easier?
    Thanks so much
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    August 10, 2017 at 5:28 pm

    :smiley:

  • uncleuncle

    Member
    August 11, 2017 at 2:37 am

    Aloha) silicone which you use in the product is not easily washed off) 

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    August 11, 2017 at 10:16 am

    hello every one
    i recommend new hair pomade/ wax formula 
    Ceteareth 25        25%
    Propyline glycol    5%
    PEG-400               2%
    Kathon-CG           0.1%
    Tween-20             1%
    Perfume                 0.3-0.4%
    DM Water              Qs to 100 %

    Process - 1. Ceteareth-25+PG+PEG-400 Heat- 65-70@C
     2. DM Water Heat 85-95@C 
    3. Mix both Phase or Continuous heating or mixing 90-95@C Ceteareth-25 completely disolve. its very stable formula 
    4. perfume+ tween-20 mix properly
    5. than add main mixer perfume blend or kathon-CG or filling to heat material in jar. 
    very stable formula.

    any outher help related in cosmetics formulation, please feel free contact.

    thanks & Regards,
    Somdatt Tyagi
    R&D Scientist 
    Nature Essence P Ltd.

    • PhilGeis

      Member
      February 24, 2024 at 6:35 am

      Should not use isothiazolinone (here Kathon CG) in a leave-on product.

      Also difficult to get effective dispersion of small quantities (e.g. Kathon) added to finished product.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  PhilGeis.
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    August 11, 2017 at 2:16 pm

    hey @somdatt
    What ingredient in your formulation is responsible for fixing to the hair?

    Could you help me with the questions I ask? Thanks so much
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    August 21, 2017 at 2:04 pm
    Hello everyone
    I wanna commented that I have been able to improve  the “wash” in the fomulation and that apparently doesn’t matter that amount pvp wich that attempt to add, the fixation is maintained medium to soft, therefore a combination with other fixing polymers must be able to increase the Fixing of the Product, now a new trouble has appeared to me.
    The fragrance next to the preservative should be added at a temperature of approximately 50 ° C but at that temperature and the sample is too gelled so it is very difficult to pack and much of it is lost (it remains stuck in the beaker)
    I think the solution could be to cut ceteareth -25 down to 5-10%
    I would like to know your opinion about this “possible” solution
    Have a nice day
  • Bobzchemist

    Member
    August 21, 2017 at 2:48 pm

    If you add the fragrance at a temperature over 50C, you won’t completely destroy it, you’ll just evaporate more of it than you would if you added it at a lower temperature. This will raise the cost a bit, which is something that most of us try hard to avoid.

    But…if you have a formula that is working in all other aspects, it might make sense to add some additional fragrance at a higher temperature (to compensate for the increased evaporation) rather than start changing the functional ingredients.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    August 21, 2017 at 3:03 pm

    @bobzchemist Thanks so much

    About the preservative, I am using benzyl alcohol (0.5%) and would like to know if at a temperature of 70 ° C this would lose antimicrobial activity.
    According to the handbook of pharmaceutical excipients, the boiling point of this is 204 ° C and its flash point is above 100 ° C so I think this should not lose any of this in the product
    If it is correct what I think, then there would be no problem in adding everything to 70 ° C (Temperature in which packaging is easy) taking into account your advice on an extra fragrance, Right?
  • Bill_Toge

    Member
    August 21, 2017 at 6:41 pm

    the flash point is the temperature above which a substance can spontaneously ignite: the vapour pressure is a measure of how readily it will evaporate

    having said that, from personal experience, I’ve never had an issue with benzyl alcohol at that kind of temperature

  • AndrewSeel

    Member
    July 26, 2018 at 6:39 pm

    hi, 
    i wonder if you got sucsess with your formula,

    You can try just to add 25% ceteareth-25 to 5% Glycerin+PG and complete with distelled water 

  • joyto

    Member
    February 23, 2024 at 2:28 pm

    what can I use to substitute ceteareth 25 in making water base pomade, cos here in my country there is no ceteareth 25/20.

    What emulsifying wax will I use to replace it to get exactly water base pomade, thanks.

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