Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Help! Problem with Ceteareth 25

  • Help! Problem with Ceteareth 25

    Posted by Rebelgreaser66 on July 13, 2017 at 2:44 am

    Hi Everyone 

    I have a problem with a formulation about Hair water based pomade and I would like you to help me solve it 

    The problem is that when i heat the mixture in water with the ceteareth 25, the Ceteareth 25 isn’t dissolved completally but instead becomes a translucent mass floating on water

    The presentation of the ceteareth is in pellets like NaOH, not powder and the msds says that the ceteareth is completely soluble in water 

    Maybe if i pulverize the ceteareth in a mortar and I add it to the hot mix, Would completely solubilize? or if i increased the amountthe water amount the ceteareth works better ? (water 60% aprox, C-25 21% aprox in formulation) 

    heating temperature = 60°C

    Thanks

    AndrewSeel replied 5 years, 4 months ago 10 Members · 48 Replies
  • 48 Replies
  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 13, 2017 at 2:54 am

    Couple of issues:

    (1)  C-25 … 21% … is that correct or did you mean 2.1%?  If 21% is correct, then that’s the major part of your problem … you only need about 2% C-25

    (2)  Temp = 60C … trying upping your temperature to 70C to 75C.

    But, if you are using 21% C-25, that’s your problem.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 13, 2017 at 3:47 pm

    Yes, the c-25 is 21% in the mix 
    Thanks @MarkBroussard , I will try it 

    The goal is producing something like this:
    https://www.maggardrazors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Hey-Joe-Strong-genuine-hair-pomade-100ml-2.jpg

  • chemist77

    Member
    July 13, 2017 at 5:43 pm

    Search this forum with Ceteareth-25 and you will get all the information. I remember a long discussion on this and few including me have posted almost complete formulation. The product you posted the picture of is what I developed too. And it has indeed more than 25% Ceteareth-25.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 13, 2017 at 9:03 pm

    It would help if you posted the full LOI of the benchmark formula.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 13, 2017 at 11:29 pm
    @MarkBroussard  @Chemist77  Here is the formulation

    Ingredient                         %

    Water                                59,1
    Propylene Glycol                2,7
    Benzil Alcohol                    0,5
    Polysorbate 20                   2,0
    PEG 7 Glyceryl Cocoate      1,7
    Vegetable Glycerin             1,4
    PEG 40 castor oil                0,8
    Polysorbate 80                   1,3
    Fragance                            1
    Pvp k30                              3,5
    Ceteareth 25                      25,0
    Silicone oil                         1,0

    Today i increased the heating temperature to 75°C in a Home water bath ( I don’t have a lab water bath) and the ceteareth remains undissolved completely

    I tried mix  with a mechanical mixer, the ceteareth dissolves completely but too much foam is formed, and the silicone oil does not function as an antifoam agent

    The ceteareth stayed like:

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 14, 2017 at 2:17 am

    I have not ever worked on a formula like this, so I can’t offer any more advice.  Is this a formula you developed on your own, or are you trying to replicate a formula you found fully-developed from a formulary?

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 14, 2017 at 4:49 am

    @MarkBroussard @Chemist77
     i trying to replicate a formula i have fully developed from a formulary. The goal is producing something like this:
    https://www.maggardrazors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Hey-Joe-Strong-genuine-hair-pomade-100ml-2.jpg

    But the problem is that the ceteareth isn’t dissolved completely in water and if i mix with a mechanical mixer, a lot of foam is formed but the ceteareth is totally dissolved 

    So i think that maybe if i use an anti-foam agent could work but I don’t know what agent could use in this case so that it does not involve any risk in its application

  • chemist77

    Member
    July 14, 2017 at 10:14 am

    Add upto 10-15% glycerine and propylene glycol combined to the batch and then process everything at not less than 85C.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 4:27 am

    Hey @Chemist77 @MarkBroussard Thanks for the advice, these were very useful.

    I have achieved the desired consistency in the final product. Apparently, the problem was the heating temperature, raise the temperature to about 85 ° C, and I have separated the mixture into two phases, which after being brought to that temperature I mixed them and worked well
    But, I have one last question:
    In my formulation, I have reduced the water level slightly, increased the C-25 and maintained the percentage of benzyl alcohol in the mixture (2%). Understanding that benzyl alcohol works as an antimicrobial agent and can also cause skin irritation, Don’t you think the percentage is high? Could it involve any risk to the skin?
    I thought of reducing this percentage to 1% (0.5% of Benzyl Alcohol and 0.5% of another preservative, Maybe, Phenoxyethanol) But I don’t know and I would like to know your opinions about it
    Thanks so much!
  • em88

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 6:44 am

    The concentration for benzyl alcohol used for topical formulation is up to 2%, but benzyl alcohol is active in pH below 8, if I’m not mistaken, and the optimum pH should be up to 5

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 12:38 pm

    You might want to try Benzyl Alcohol + Dehydroacetic Acid … it’s a well-established, commercially available blend … use at 1% and you should be fine.

  • belassi

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 2:28 pm

    I don’t recommend dehydroacetic acid because it is chemically quite active and is able to decompose salts (double replacement reaction). For example potassium glycrrhizate + dehydroacetic acid -> some kind of precipitate and unknown byproducts. Just 0.5% of dha ruined a 40% solution.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 2:34 pm

    And what salts do you see in this formula?

  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 3:01 pm

    Just for information: we have used  0.75 and 1%  benzyl alcohol (passed USP 51) at Ph up to 10 in the presence of high levels of Ca CO3.

  • belassi

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 4:20 pm

    I wasn’t talking about this formula specifically.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 5:15 pm

    I see … a general comment.  So, Benzyl Alcohol + Dehydroacetic Acid would work just fine in this formula.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    @MarkBroussard i will try that combination , Thanks 

    But is the percentage of benzyl alcohol in the formulation okay? There is no risk?
    And talking about the preservation and stability of the product, this was what was obtained:

    I take a sample of the container, exposed it to the air, to the interperie and now it looks like this:

    Is this normal? Or is there any stability problem?
  • belassi

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    Seems to have gone from translucent to opaque, so yes, there appears to be a stability issue. Opaque usually means formation of crystals.

  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 8:25 pm

    Agree if you look closely you can see crystals formed.Put it under the scope to be sure.

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 10:16 pm

    @Belassi @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ
    Here is the new formulation

    Ingredient                         %
    Water                                47,1
    Propylene Glycol                2,0
    Benzil Alcohol                    2,0
    Polysorbate 20                   1,9
    PEG 7 Glyceryl Cocoate      6,0
    Vegetable Glycerin             4,0
    PEG 40 castor oil                0,7
    Polysorbate 80                   1,0
    Fragance                            0,5
    Pvp k30                              3,0
    Ceteareth 25                      30,0
    Silicone oil                         1,0

    Any suggestions to avoid crystallization?
    I clarify that if the product remains in the open container does not happen, only happened when you take a sample there and leave it outdoors
  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 10:26 pm

    I would do a knockout based on the indoor/outdoor reaction.I don’t see anything obvious!

  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 10:29 pm
    • Forgot to mention BA is too high as all you need is 1percent.
  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 19, 2017 at 11:51 pm

    @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ 
     Knockout experiment? sure!

    If anyone knows that could be causing the crystallization in the formulation, I would be very grateful if I discussed it and help me to get a solution
    I clarify again, this only happens if I leave something of the sample to the interperie for approximately 24 hours

  • Rebelgreaser66

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 1:05 am

    I was thinking, and maybe what happened was a phenomenon of oxidation in the product and this is why its coloration became opaque?

  • chemist77

    Member
    July 20, 2017 at 1:17 am

    The silicone oil and PVP in there are going to cause turbidity, read my previous comment. The glycerin and PG content has to be between 10-15% minimum. Chuck out the cocoate also along with the silicone oil. Optmize PVP.

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