Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Dishwashing liquid

  • Dishwashing liquid

    Posted by bg1998 on August 16, 2023 at 9:54 am

    I am writing to you today to inquire about a problem I am having with my dishwashing liquid. After two weeks of production, a cloudy substance begins to form. I am unsure of the cause of this issue. I am using a painted mixing tool, could this affect the formulation?

    Here is my formulation in 1 liter:

    PLAIN WATER 886g

    EDTA 1g

    ACNIBIO MXR 1g

    SLES 53g

    LABS LIQUID 7g

    SODIUM HYDROXIDE FLAKES 1g

    CDEA 10g

    CAPB 6g

    COLORAT 1g

    SCENT 0.5g

    INDUSTRIAL SALT 35g

    Thank you in advance!

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    Nate replied 1 month, 2 weeks ago 9 Members · 29 Replies
  • 29 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    August 16, 2023 at 11:55 am

    It might be the case that your LABS once neutralized, is salting out from your product due to the very high amount of salt. I’d advise you to either thicken the product with something else so you don’t need to add as much salt (maybe CAPB), or neutralize with TEA instead of NaOH (although, you still have too much NaCl). You could also add SXS.

    • bg1998

      Member
      August 16, 2023 at 9:43 pm

      Thank you for the input really appreciate it. So I choose salt as a thickener because of the cost. My product only sells for $.70/liter as I’m targeting lower income brackets. Any alternatives?

      • PhilGeis

        Member
        December 8, 2023 at 1:28 pm

        What is pH of product

  • ozgirl

    Member
    August 16, 2023 at 7:47 pm

    It is possible that it is microbial contamination. What is your pH?

    • bg1998

      Member
      August 16, 2023 at 9:32 pm

      pH is around 7-8. This is kind a weird as the other variant (green;lime) has no problem.

      • ozgirl

        Member
        August 17, 2023 at 5:51 pm

        Your preservative (Methylchloroisothiazolinone (and) methylisothiazolinone) has it’s best activity at pH 7 or below. It is active up to pH 8 but the effectiveness of the MCI decreases at pH levels higher than 7.

  • Nate

    Member
    August 16, 2023 at 11:29 pm

    try adding sles,labs,capb,cdea,edta,sodium hydroxide,salt, and other additives you have

    • bg1998

      Member
      August 17, 2023 at 1:25 am

      You mean increase the amount?

      • Nate

        Member
        January 7, 2024 at 4:45 am

        No i mean the addition order also if you can use less LABS instead increase the SLES in dishwashing formulations most commercial companies are using less LABS these days also optionally try adjusting the ph to 6~7 anionic surfactants work well at acidic pH that means sadly you have to avoid amphoteric surfactants because in acidic pH they become cationic and react with the anionic which will cause further complications try this also if you have access to TEA try using it can increase the active matter according to some book i read but its worth trying i hope this helps

  • zoya

    Member
    August 17, 2023 at 2:32 am

    Didn’t you experience something uncommon during stability testing?

    Have you made a sample without perfume? It can also cause cloudiness if some incompatibilities happen between perfume components and surfactant systems.

    • ketchito

      Member
      August 17, 2023 at 6:32 am

      Turbidity due to oils (like fragrances) tend to eventually go to the top. Turbidity due to surfactants (salting out) always go to the bottom. I’d make one batch without LABS amd put it in the fridge, to see id there’s precipitation. If it doesn’t get turbid, then you put it back and neutralize it with TEA (you’ll need more compared to NaOH to get the right pH). Put the sample in the fridge to see if there’s precipitation.

      And as others mentioned, use a good preservative system.

      • oldman20

        Member
        December 7, 2023 at 12:46 am

        what’s benefit when use TEA instead NaOH?

        • ketchito

          Member
          December 7, 2023 at 9:28 am

          Once neutralized, TEA-dodecylbenzene sulfonate has better solubility in water than Na-dodecylbenzene sulfonate, so it’s less prone to salting out.

          • oldman20

            Member
            December 13, 2023 at 1:34 am

            i tried neutralized LABSA with TEA instead NaOH, and yes ratio of TEA much more than NaOH, but then use NaCl as thickener, it still turbit like use NaOH to neutralized. or it not thing as i understand what you mentioned about ration NaCl:

            when use NaOH: need 3.25gr to neutralized 25gr LAS and 0.5%NaCl as thickener, viscosity get 2550cP, cloud point 10 celsius

            when use TEA: need 13.5gr to neutralized 25gr LAS, 1.3%NaCl and solution became turbit. (yes, too high NaCl, but from what i read from your answer, i expect can dissolve more than 0.5%, and i just jump 1.3 to test, and failed 🙁

            • ketchito

              Member
              December 13, 2023 at 5:26 am

              Hi! It means your system can’t hold that much NaCl. You either need to reduce it, or reduce the level of LABSA (you can compensate with SLES). Just to be sure, make a sample neutralized with TEA without NaCl and put it in the fridge; if after 2-3 days it doesn’t get turbid, it’s an issue with the electrolytes. From there, start reducing the amount of LABSA. You’ll notice that the less LABSA you use, the more NaCl you’ll be able to add without turbidity…….or, you could just add an hydrotrope (Sodium xylene sulfonate, for instance).

            • oldman20

              Member
              December 15, 2023 at 9:08 pm

              thank for information. I will take look it. also i faced case when use formula without LABSA, seem NaCl can put more than when not contained LABSA. thank for repeat me again

              • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  oldman20.
  • PhilGeis

    Member
    August 17, 2023 at 5:32 am

    prob need a preservative

  • LeonB

    Member
    November 21, 2023 at 1:27 am

    Add Urea to your formulation - about 2% should do, then test, place your product into a test tube into ice with a thermometer into your product. As the temperature decreases you should not not a cloud formation in the test tube. The issue with Urea is that it will also decrease your viscosity, but it is a quick and cheap option to resolve your issue. Please add CIT/MIT to your formula as preservative.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  LeonB.
    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  LeonB.
  • oldman20

    Member
    December 8, 2023 at 8:00 am

    @ketchito i think it not make much different in formula i mentioned, cause NaOH ratio in that very small

  • Hamlaoui

    Member
    December 10, 2023 at 8:04 am

    I had the same problem before 1/ you can add a hydrotrope like sxs, urea, MPG 2/ I eliminated the cocamide and added the quantities SLES70 and betain and the problem solved

    • ketchito

      Member
      December 11, 2023 at 7:16 am

      <div>@oldman20 To fully neutralize a system that has a decent leve of LABS, you’ll need roughly 1/4 of that amount as NaOH (50% w/w), so it’s not a little amount. Now, as I mentioned, when using TEA as neutralizer, the resultan salt is more soluble than when using NaOH.</div>

      I agree with @Hamlaoui. If you still want to use only NaOH, then a hydrotrope is recommended (if your LABS leve is higher than 5%).

      • oldman20

        Member
        December 12, 2023 at 1:34 am

        And what is hydrotrope?

  • oldman20

    Member
    December 11, 2023 at 8:52 am

    @ketchito thank for your information, but what i mentioned is floor cleaner formula, which has no LABSA, and use NaOH to adjust viscosity through increasing pH level, instead TEA. And when use pH to adjust viscosity in formula without NaCl, no matter which i use: TEA or NaOH, right?

    • ketchito

      Member
      December 12, 2023 at 5:14 am

      Sorry, I think I was following the original thread. If you have a floor cleaner, turbidity due to salting out wouldn’t be much of an issue since the level is very low, so yeah, it wouldn’t matter if you neutralize with either NaOH or TEA. Now, be sure you’ve completely neutralize your system or else, you might experience a pH drop.

      And by the way, a hydrotrope is just a molecule that increases the solubility of another one. The most common is Sodium xylene sulfonate.

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