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But it contains “Lauryl Glucoside” and from the study it doesn’t seem to fair much better than the other glucosides?

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In sum:

There is one USDA certified organic water, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4676412/Asarasi-USDA-certified-organic-WATER.html

Other organic waters that are not USDA certified would not count towards USDA certification. You’d have to strike a deal with Asarasi

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Glucosides have seen rising sensitivity reaction incidence particularly in people over 40 with a history of atopic dermatitis, more women than men.

So might be worth trying something else! 

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Thanks Bill, could a silicone resin work instead? 

Proposing a formula

Actives for SPF ~20:
8% Padimate O, 4.5% Benzophenone-3, 4% Octinoxate 

37% Isododecane
10% Petrolatum (not sure it will work with the silicones)
10% Carnauba wax
10% Trimethylsiloxysilicate, Polypropyl silsesquioxane
5% Dimethicone
5% Dimethicone/vinyl dimethicone crosspolymer
5% Cyclopentasiloxane
1% Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate
0.5% Tocopheryl Acetate

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Doreen, you are clearly not the target market :smiley:

Although it shouldn’t be sticky, I’m imagining more like a smooth and inert hard silicone wax. Not my field of expertise so I was hoping someone would chime in.

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Well, both gatefosse and carubba carry it. E.g.

Original Extract Orange Bio 

INCI Name: Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Water

Company: Gattefossé

Not sure how I feel about it.

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Time to figure out what Himalayan Sherpas use if anything. There are some “moutain climber” lip balms that could be a starting point although I doubt any of them last close to 24 .

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@Perry lasts = keeps my lip moist or at least not dry 24 hours.

So far there’s been one suggestion, some sort of semi permanent super glue that’s skin compatible.

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I don’t think a formula like this exists, at least I haven’t found it, so some potentially useful ingredients would be a good starting point.

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What’s a “low level”? A person can get comedones for a dozen reasons, regardless, this is a bit off topic as I’m not looking to keep shea butter in the formula.

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@DAS Can’t? drink from a glass  sounds like a slight exaggeration.

Why is it unrealistic? Obviously most if not all brands want products that work for your average joe, so they compromise on longevity in favor of lip feel etc.

I want a semi permanent lip balm that’s not super glue.

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Comedogenicity is related to dosage, hence why me using measly 4% shea butter isn’t breaking a lot of people out, although I think it could be replaced with something better!

“Substances that are strongly comedogenic when tested neat (by itself) or in high concentrations become non-comedogenic after sufficient dilution.” – Kligman, 1996

For example, a study by Draelos and DiNardo published in 2006 found that 100% acetylated lanolin alcohol gave a very high comedogenicity rating of 4-5. At 50%, the comedogenicity was still 4-5. But when diluted to 25%, the comedogenicity dropped to a measly 1. Most products contain multiple ingredients, most at concentrations well below 25% – these could easily be rendered benign by dilution. For reference, a typical face lotion is 80% water, which means that the other ingredients max out at 20% concentration (and that’s if the lotion contains only one other ingredient).

https://labmuffin.com/fact-check-how-to-use-comedogenicity-ratings/

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I’m agnostic regarding the base at this point, could do a silicone base or something just using capric/caprylic triglycerides and a light emulsifier although it’s nice when you can find functional naturals with good tolerability across the board (rose hip, maybe? carrot oil? or maybe it could be an allergen or irritant for some?).

Why is safflower a problem? Acneic people on average have lower amount of linoleic acid in their skin and there is some (weak) evidence that it could be anti p.acnes http://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/ArticleFullRecord.jsp?cn=JAKO201119950685506

Petrolatum and glycerin, maybe, but would be more interested in finding a superior natural or skin identical option if possible, e.g. using ceramides/cholesterol etc to make a light but highly moisturizing lotion insted of a heavier more occlusive one.

Can’t find VegieLight!

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Well, both niacinamide and retinol are know to help prevent acne and it’s a ~1/500 report, so it’s not causing a lot of problems, but yes, reducing that risk or just making it better vs breakouts is always good as negative reviews weigh heavily. What do you suggest to offer occlusivity instead?

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Around 4% same with the oils. 

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Depends on target p value and if you’re more concerned with that or statistical power - if you have a potentially big effect then you don’t need as many people to plausibly prove there’s an effect. Also you can do multiple samplings per person to increase power. I should talk to a statistician about this!

I had a corneometer, but I think it’s preferable to use a 3rd party that has experience, access to test subjects and it could also unbias the experiment.

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We got approved with a one page COA from a 3rd party analytics lab, photos of the product from all angles and manufacturer invoice for said product.

The CMO name did NOT need to be on the packaging.

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That’s definitely true, there’s a large range of risk tolerance out there, I don’t think anyone would be on the hook for not doing a bunch of method validation batches if the production batches pass API testing - seems like more of a precaution to make sure production batches turn out as expected?

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Interesting @Bobzchemist I’ve never had it explained that way by CMOs, usually they don’t say what in entails beyond mentioning a series of lab batches of various sizes which usually in my experience can be sold “if they pass the test”.

The majority of CMOs I’ve been in touch with don’t require it at all and are happy with 1 year stability testing w API draws in place and doing per batch API testing (some also want PET and RIPT testing to be done, naturally from their POV the more testing the better).

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@Bobzchemist thank you, so if I understand correctly:

Method validation is a number of test batches that are API assayed to make sure production batches will be meet API spec?

This could be from 1 to X batches and they could be sold if they pass the API testing?

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Could you clarify? Do it yourself? What’s wrong with just API and micro testing? 

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Thanks for all the comments, this is a great resource I’ll chime in once I actually try some out.

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Thanks! Hmm they don’t have e.g. glycolic acid and are sold out of lactic acid.

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Doreen81. There’s fairly strong evidence that certain ratios and amounts of lipids do strengthen the skin barrier over time. Of course, you need a product with adequate amount of each ingredient, and that’s where the bullshit comes in with brands putting 0.001% of a ceramide in the middle of the ingredient list due to the 1% rule. Nor do any brands I know of supply 3rd party pr batch analytics verifying the amounts used.

I don’t need corticostereoids, just wondering if there are superior alts to P.

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@Microformulation Moringa butter is an interesting one, yet one would think there’d be mixtures of polymers etc that would perform better than petrolatum? Applying pure moringa butter is also a bit impractical, it’s too hard on its own.

You could also imagine that there would be products that nurture the skin barrier by provides certain amounts of lipids in certain ratios such as certain cermaides, linoleic acid, palmitic acid and cholesterol. Combined with some petrolatum or another barrier forming TEWL reducing agent it could be superior to petrolatum alone.

Guess I need to make it at prove it’s better than pure petrolatum