[Will]

Please explain, how do you plan to get a “waterbased” pomade using waxes?

[Will]

@Belassi once I tried to make a soap with similar ingredients than yours (hot process ~140F), as the fragrance I had an old bottle of Coco Chanel that I decided to give it a go… when I added that the temperature spiked up like crazy in seconds, like scorching smoking hot, and it hardened almost immediately. It was the weirdest reaction I have seen in my cosmetics adventures.

I have no idea what in the fragrance would give this unexpected reaction. Maybe I should have waited it to cool down more, but I was afraid of it hardening too much. Anyways, since that episode I have been scared of adding fragrances during my soap processes, as I feel they are kind of unpredictable.

[Will]

I think there are a few problems with your formula. One of them for sure is not enough emulsifying agents.

I also think your are using too much waxes and clay.

[Will]

Thanks @Fekher, I am going to reduce the levels of solids in my oil phase and do a few more tests. All best! 

[Will]

@Pharma that’s true! I hadn’t realized its INCI name. I’ve used HEPES before in molecular biology. Perhaps they intend to achieve pH stability (around 7-7.5 in the case of HEPES), and subsequently overall product stability.

@Perry That’s what I suspected, and @Herbnerd also shared the same opinion.

Thank you all for your input!

[Will]

Nice @ngarayeva001! To me anecdotal self-tested evidences are the solidest evidences.

What would be your recommended concentrations of acids for your skin tone “evening” cream? Did you combine lactic with any other acid?

Cheers!

[Will]

Hi there @Fekher and thanks for your reply. Below is the LOI for this product:

Fase	Materia Prima	%
A	Aqua	44.95
A	EDTA Na2	0.05
A	Glicerina	1.5
A	Acudyne 1000	7
B	Trietanolamina	1
C	Polimer W-25	4
D	Lipex Shea	2
D	Shea Butter	5
D	Alcool C16	6
D	Polybase 165F	3.5
D	Polysorbate 20	5
D	Methilan GMS	4
D	Carnaúba Wax	4
D	Beewax	4
E	Rice Silk SN - Rice Silica	7
F	Parfum	0.5
F	Fenoxietanol/Parabenos	0.5
	Total	100

The idea is to get a smooth but firm hair pomade, matte effect, when rubbed in the hands it “disappears” leaving no white trace. So far I am getting the right consistency, but it is leaving this undesired white trace and no enough hair fixing.

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Will

[Will]

Doreen said:

@Will
I think @ngarayeva001 meant 20% L-ascorbic acid, not 20% lactic acid.

Sorry my bad.

[Will]

Gunther said:

If this product actually reduces freckles, spots or any skin pigmentation
you can be sure it ain’t because of any Vitamin C
It likely contains something like hydroquinone as an UNDECLARED INGREDIENT.

BTW they should rename it to
LOL’ not real

LOL’ not real..   

These Chinese copycats are the best! (and scary at the same time)

[Will]

ngarayeva001 said:

Yep, a guinea pig here who tried: low pH 20% LAA (freshly made stored in the fridge), 10% Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, 5% MAP in combination with 2% Alpha Arbutin, no forms of vitamin C above do anything to reduce freckles even when applied religiously for more than 2 months. If it actually reduces pigmentation it’s not because of vitamin C.

I guess it depends a lot what type of skin pigment we are talking about. Freckles are little spots of melanin overproducion. I am not sure if it is related to other types, like Acanthosis, those darkers areas around eyes, elbow, groin, etc.

For Acanthosis, alpha hydroxyacids (lactic, glycolic, malic…) seem to be efficient. I am not sure about freckles, I only know the are cute 

I found an interesting article though, about facial age spots or discolorations. Not sure if age spots are related to freckles, but the combination of ascorbic acid with lactic acid showed some results after 3 months:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18505528

@ngarayeva001 you might have missed your desired results by one month. But I think 20% lactic acid is a lot!!! Up to 12% should be more than enough, I think.

[Will]

Hello @geiri!

I was wondering if you tried to add an Acrylate Copolymer to your formula as @Perry and @Bill_Toge suggested. I think it is indispensable to add that if your goal is to get a firm hold pomade.

On another note, although clays are a very traditional product in matte effect hair pomades, they might leave some white residue in the hair. It may also form some crumbles when spreading in your hands. One good substitute I have found is fine mesh silica (SiO2). It is quite efficient to achieve a nice matte effect and leaves no residues in the hair or hands when rubbing. Here in Brazil I use Rice Silk SN.

All best!

[Will]

@ngarayeva001 thanks for continuing this very interesting discussion. I am about to open a blow dry express business here with its own cosmetics line. That is why I started the previous discussion.

About heat protection. After reading @Perry ‘s articles, I still stick with the opinion that the protection comes more from making the keratin fibers more flexible, while the polymer seal the keratin scales, making the hair more resistant to heat and mechanical stress. As opposed to offering some heat protection per se. I would only believe in heat protection if there was something like 5% Asbestos in the formula. And if there was something like that then it would defeat its purpose, and hair straightening wouldn’t be achieved, because the strengthening comes exactly from the denaturing of the protein fibers through heat. Just like with other more permanent methods that use Guanidine or even Formaldehyde like in the Brazilian Blowout. It is all about protein denaturing.

About your formulation, I see that you got both oil and aqueous phases. The formulation I shared before was only aqueous. I recently ran into a product that had so many oils (coconut, argan, jojoba). The hairdresser explained to me that she used this “oily” one for more thick and curly/afro hair types, which required more flat iron passings. Then she showed me another one which was only aqueous (more like my formula), and she told me that was for straight and thin hair types, to get a bit more voluminous/velvety finish.

I really like to hear what the hair professionals have to say in their own simple words. I find it so rich in information. After all we are developing formulas for them and their clients. After MS, PhD and 3 yrs of Post Doc, lots of peer reviewed papers published (in medical biochemistry, nothing to do with cosmetics).. nowadays I rather listen to barbers and hairdressers while thinking of a formulation, than reading those fancy articles with lots of high-tech data they cannot make sense of it, and end up throwing inconclusive speculations at the end. Unless their research is funded by a private corporation, then at end they say whatever they want to hear.

[Will]

@ngarayeva001 that’s a very interesting question. There is nothing in the formula that suggests thermal protection. But in my barbershop I hear barbers telling clients to always use a beard balm before blow drying their long beards, or to use a hair pomade before blow drying their hair - in order to prevent hair breakage. So it looks like it is a common sense amongst professionals that any emollient film gives some protection.

As a biologist, my (wild) guess is that the emollients in the formula might protect the hair from all the heavy stretching and brushing involved in the process, by making the keratin fibers more flexible, while the polymers might work by sealing the keratin scales together making it more resistant from the mechanical stress.

So at the end it might have very little to do with heat itself :grimace:

[Will]

Indeed @Bill_Toge.. for people like me starting now, I really feel overwhelmed with all those commercial names and miraculous promises. I don’t even know where to start.

[Will]

@Bill_Toge that is interesting.. I always thought the copolymers like Amphomer by AkzoNobel (Octyl Acrylamide/Acrylates/Butylaminoethyl Methacrylate Copolymer) and Acudyne 1000 by Dow Chemical (Acrylates/Hydroxyesters Acrylates Copolymer) were the new cool stuff in the market, whereas VP/VA copolymers were more like the old-fashion ones. Those first two indeed need to be neutralized with a base to turn into their active forms.

Which copolymer would you recommend for hair styling products like this hair spray, pomades, gels etc?

[Will]

Understood @ngarayeva001! Thank you!

[Will]

@Thota Potassium Sorbate might be another option, less irritant and works well at pH<6.5. It’s not a broad spectrum but might work in synergy with Sodium Benzoate at lower concentrations.

Additionally, like @em88 said, you might not even need preservatives. That’s because the pH of your final product will be really low (!!!), and that itself will reduce a lot the chances of bacteria/fungus proliferation. Combined with a couple mild preservatives, your gel will be just fine. 

Look also at @ngarayeva001 example of P50 ingredients: acid, acid, acid, acid and more acid… some plant extracts to calm and reduce skin inflammation (from all the acid burning!!!)…then sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate as preservatives. 

[Will]

Thank you for your comments @ngarayeva001!

I am going to try lowering Panthenol to 1.0% and fragrances to 0.25%. Indeed it had a sticky feel to it.

“you will need min 4% of solubiliser to achieve clear product”… what do you mean by 4%?

Well noted, Potassium Sorbate and Sodium Benzoate will only work on low pHs.

All best!

[Will]

Thanks a lot @Bill_Toge!

[Will]

Thank you @Bill_Toge! In practical terms, let’s say while making a body cream, what could one expect in terms of texture/consistency/rheology of the final product when choosing ceteareth vs. oleth?

[Will]

Thank you @Fekher and @Perry!

And what are the advantages of using ethoxylated vs. non-ethoxylated alcohols?

[Will]

But if you still want to have something that looks like an oil for your beard fixative.. you could try a hair grooming formula:

acrylate copolymers (instead of PVP), with some emollients like polyquartenium, glycerin, dimethicone (silicone) etc.. those are all water soluble, but your beard won’t look as natural in my opinion.

[Will]

It will be difficult as all hair fixing additives are water soluble.

I got a long beard and own a large barbershop with its own cosmetic line (and was a biochemist in my previous incarnation).. hehe.. anyways, first I would not use PVP on my beard, as it leaves some flaky residues that can cause dermatitis, fungus etc down the road.. for some beard fixing effect I would suggest you to try a natural beard balm with a mix of some good quality waxes/butters/oils.. for instance 10-12% bee’s wax in your balm will give you quite a firm hold.

[Will]

@justa_pinch the crumbles might be due to too much kaolin clay.. try 7% rice silica instead, it does the matte effect job quite well, in my opinion better than kaolin clay.. and it disappears after rubbing, which I reckon to be the desired effect. If you think that you still need some extra matte effect you could add 1-2% kaolin clay, but first I would try without kaolin to see if you get rid of the crumbles. Don’t forget to add those after emulsification, very slowly and with lots of mixing!

About the soft texture, First I would lower glycerin to a max 2%. I would also try lowering your oils in general, while increasing the percentage of heavy weight waxes like ozokerite, bees wax, carnauba. Olive and soy waxes are too margerine like feel  :#

Also I know that there are some heavier emulsifiers that will give you more of a pomade texture to your product, i.e. fatty acid ethoxylates in combination with the fatty alcohols or cetearyl glucoside you are using might get you the consistency you want.

As a last suggestion, I would try jojoba oil instead of castor oil.. jojoba has more that matte effect, whereas castor oil gives a bit of the greasy touch to it. 

[Will]

@Sibech thank you, gonna try that!

@Chemist77 what combination do you mean?