[wannabe_chemist]

@Pharma that is brilliant! thank you

[wannabe_chemist]

@alchemist01 thank you for your response, it does indeed help! In regard to your statement “ Do know a lot of people that try to help on this website are professionals and don’t have time to respond to every reply, I don’t think you should get upset with anyone over that.”

I completely agree, and I don’t expect anyone to go out of their way to help me. That is why I was respectful and grateful for any response. Even when he was crapping on my entire concept, I was still respectful. He then crapped all over humblebeandme and couldn’t answer a simple question to state WHY. After 5 days of waiting for a response, I decided to tell the person who asked me about why humblebeandme was not a good source that he just wants to spread fear for some reason. It would be one thing if he just didn’t have time to respond but he has been active on this forum every day.

I was very excited to finally try and make a urea product after spending over a year trying to find the perfect one. I had been contemplating it for months and months and I finally went through with it after spending much time researching it. If I could just buy the perfect product with 5% urea, I’d rather do that, but I don’t have that option.

After reading his comments, all my ingredients are just sitting in a box in a closet. I don’t know why anyone would discourage someone without giving them a reason why. I’m gonna give it a shot, maybe I’ll start with a simple ‘toner’ and monitor how it changes. Now I know what to look out for! (information that falls under the helpful category… not discouragement). But anyway, enough of that. 

Thank you @EVchem, @Pharma, and @jemolian for your tips you have no idea how much it helps a “wannabe chemist” out! And jemolian, I have no intentions of selling this or keeping it around for months at a time for that matter. I just want to try and maintain my seborrheic dermatitis with it. You’ve been so great, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me. 

[wannabe_chemist]

@alchemist01 it’s not help when he just scaremongers and refuses to answer questions. It wasn’t helpful to me in any way. He asked me if I just wanted to make a moisturizer for dry skin and stated there are plenty of good humectants that I can use instead.

The very first thing I said in my very first post was “After struggling to find a urea product that is ‘safe’ for seborrheic dermatitis, I’ve decided to try and make my own. I want to start simple and then add to it. “

@jemolian was incredibly helpful and I’m truly grateful for his response. But he provided something helpful to assist my project. Not completely bashing the very thought of it.

Ngara says “ Don’t start with a problematic material that requires years of experience.”

I asked him “ And is urea the problematic ingredient in this case?” No response. He just keeps telling me “ trust me you need to master o/w first. W/O take a lot of knowledge and months (if not years) of practice. “

So I tried to ask if I could just ditch the lotion idea all together and put some urea in a toner with a buffer and a preservative. He won’t answer if his problem is with me trying to make a w/o emulsion or if the problem is urea.

Why does lotioncrafter and makingcosmetics make it seem like you can just mix it into anything and there will be no problems. 
“Reactivity: Not reactive under normal conditions of use”
“Chemical Stability: No known hazardous reactions”
“Possibility of Hazardous Reactions: Will not occur”
“Conditions to Avoid: Gross bacterial contamination”
“Hazardous Decomposition Products: Urea is decomposed by heating and can form products including ammonia…”

I’m not gonna heat it, I’m not using sewer water, so what exactly is the problem is my question.

I’m not keeping this product around for months at a time. I’ve come to find (through the help of jemolian and other sources) that as long as the pH isn’t drifting, there are no bubbles forming, or crystals forming, then the urea is most likely fine. I tried asking this question too, what exactly is it about urea that is so difficult to formulate with? no answer just simply don’t do it, you’re gonna die

[wannabe_chemist]

@Lisa2190 I’m gonna say humblebeeandme is fine at this point. Ngara doesn’t like to answer questions only scaremonger. 

[wannabe_chemist]

@Lisa2190 I was only agreeing with @ngarayeva001 that humblebeeandme might not be the most credible source in the world because I really don’t know much about them. I mean, her entire website is dedicated to DIY, so her knowledge is far better than the average person’s. If ngara knows something more than that, maybe he can tell you.

[wannabe_chemist]

I remember seeing peppermint oil could help hair growth:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289931/

[wannabe_chemist]

ngarayeva001 said:

@wannabe_chemist, humblebeeandme is not a source I would advise anyone to follow.
 
Re: water in oil, trust me you need to master o/w first. W/O take a lot of knowledge and months (if not years) of practice. 

Let’s start from the beginning. Do you want to make a moisturiser for very dry skin? If this is what you are trying to achieve, there are plenty of good humectants and good occlusive materials that work pretty well. Don’t start with a problematic material that requires years of experience. You still can make a decent product that will do what you want and will be elegant upon application. 
You need glycerin, sodium lactate (or sodium PCA or both), chelating agent (disodium EDTA) petrolatum, mineral oil, a good broad-spectrum preservative (germaben II is good), anhydrous lanolin, a decent emulsifier (GMS+PEG-100 stearate, Ceteareth 20),  thickener (cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol) and some sort of stabiliser (Zen would work, but you can go for xanthan). 

I agree humblebeeandme is probably not the best source in the world. The only reason I have to go through all the trouble of making my own product is for a urea a product though. I have seborrheic dermatitis which feeds on anything with a carbon chain length of 11-24 (which rules out mostly all emulsifiers).

I’ve solved all my skin concerns expect for one. The layer of crust that develops from Sebderm after a couple days of not doing honey masks or having a 10% urea cream on my face. Problem is, it has petrolatum in it and my skin just can’t handle being cleansed all the time.

The ingredients for the 10% urea cream are:

Water, mineral oil, urea, glycerin, petrolatum, cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, triethanolamine, carbomer, ceteareth-20, methylparaben, ethylparaben, butylparaben, propylparaben, isobutylparaben.

Here is another 10% urea cream almost identical:

Water, Mineral Oil, Urea, Glycerin, Petrolatum, Ceteth-20, Cetyl Alcohol,  Cetearyl Alcohol, Triethanolamine, Carbomer, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Lactic Acid

Maybe I can try to recreate something like this. Just drop the petrolatum and do 5% urea instead.  I’m perfectly okay with trying and failing. At least I can cross it off my list of things to try. I know urea is an ingredient that works for me. 

How does one know if they are using a w/o or o/w emulsifier if the manufacturer doesn’t tell you? And is urea the problematic ingredient in this case?

 Can I just drop the lotion idea entirely and throw urea in some water with a buffer and preservative? 

Kinda mad that the safety data sheet for urea on makingcosmetics and lotioncrafter makes it sound like you can do almost anything with it and not mess up. They don’t mention the pH drift of urea either. 

[wannabe_chemist]

you’re so cool! Do you use alibaba.com or something usually?

[wannabe_chemist]

I would rather not mix it up every day (not sure if mixing the small amount urea every day is hazardous or not lol). Right now I’m mixing up honey masks and wearing them for 3 hours every few days in lieu of urea. Which is also tedious 😐 but I don’t mind too much.

Could you please tell me where you buy your Triacetin?

[wannabe_chemist]

jemolian said:

Well, if you want to use Sodium Lactate or Gluconolactone, that would be fine as well.

Though with the Sodium Lactate, you will need to use Sepimax Zen or no polymeric emulsifier at all as they won’t be able to take the electrolytes. You can consider your previous combination, Sepimax Zen + Gum, if not a normal emulsifier with fatty alcohol or acid should be fine as well.  

With Gluconolactone, the pH will go in 2 directions so the ultimate amount to add would vary. Not sure if it’s something that you want to try out but it’s this formulation would be one that you’d need to observe more closely. 

I’m gonna stick with your first generous recommendation, lotioncrafter makes it all sound so simple.  I thought I once heard gluconolactone had a pH drift downward, thank you for clearing that up.

I wouldn’t have thought of sodium lactate as an electrolyte but now that you say it, it’s pretty obvious it is. I wish urea wasn’t so tricky, i’d love to just stick it in some water with a buffer and call it a day. But I’ve heard it doesn’t do well in aqueous solutions.

Would it be ridiculous to mix some urea in distilled water every day and not worry about any of this? lol

[wannabe_chemist]

jemolian said:

From my experience with making a Urea creams, here’s what i’d recommend with the similar ingredients. 

Water Phase

• Distilled Water
• Glycerin (1.5% - 3%)
• Urea (5%)
• Buffer - Triacetin (0.25%) 

Oil Phase

• Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides (15% - 20%)
• Sepinov EMT 10 (1.2%)

Others

• pH Buffer - Lactic Acid (q.s)
• Preservative as required

Instructions:

1. Dissolve/add the ingredients into the distilled water 
2. Slurry the Sepinov EMT 10 in the CCT
3. Add the slurry into the water phase and mix till gel
4. Add the remaining ingredients 

— 

I’d recommend to make a fresh batch to retain the maximum effect of the Urea since it will break down in water over time. You can make one batch ever 2 months or so? You can observe the pH and for any bubbling.

The pH shouldn’t shoot up as much with the Triacetin, however you can choose to use other buffers, then you can opt for Sepimax Zen, if not the Sepinov EMT 10 should be easier to deal with as the Sepimax Zen requires some hydration duration. 

http://www.iscd.it/files/UREA-FROM-THE-CHEMIST-S-POINT-OF-VIEW.pdf

Thank you SO much! I really appreciate it. I’ve been very stressed about trying to figure this out by myself. I’m so glad you posted that article because I thought urea had a pH drift in the opposite direction. 

I wouldn’t mind making it every couple weeks if I had to!

I’m not sure if Triacetin (Glyceryl Triacetate) is ‘safe’ for seborrheic derm but at .25% I doubt it would be a problem. I think I will give Triacetin a try!
Maybe I can try a batch with sodium lactate or Gluconolactone instead of Triacetin and compare them too.

Thank you again for taking the time to help me I’m going to take your advice! So incredibly helpful! I’m feeling a lot better about this now.

edit: Do you know if Sepinov EMT 10 is classified as a w/o or o/w emulsifier? I still have no idea how to tell. >.<

[wannabe_chemist]

I just noticed that makingcosmetics says w/o or o/w emulsifiers. The only one under w/o emulsifiers that would work for me is Creammaker silicone (Cetyl diglyceryl tris(trimethylsiloxy)silylethyl dimethicone). “Liquid Silicone Water-in-Oil Emulsifier“

It says here: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-creammaker-silicone.pdf  , that Creamaker silicone has an ‘HLB value’ of 2.

but on this page: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/FAQ-HLB-Value_ep_122-1.html

it says 
HLB 1 - 3: Antifoaming Properties
HLB 3 - 8: w/o-Emulsification
HLB 7 - 9: Wetting Properties
HLB 9 - 18: o/w-Emulsification
HLB 15 - 20: Solubilizing Properties

So I’m confused if it has an HLB of 2, how can it be a w/o emulsifier?
—-

Does anyone know if Emulthix from lotioncrafter is w/o or o/w? Or if anyone has a reading material they can suggest to me, please do! 

[wannabe_chemist]

ngarayeva001 said:

It is a very bad idea to start with such a product. You need a proper buffer to lock down the pH. Or I read you can formulate it in w/o format not to worry about pH shift for urea. But you can’t start with w/o without experience with o/w.
Sepimax zen is a fantastic material in general but even this one might not be able to deal with urea. 

Thank for your advice, I appreciate it! How do I know if an emulsifier is o/w or w/o? Do you know if urea’s pH drifts significantly within a few weeks? 

If urea doesn’t do well in o/w emulsions, does it not do well in aqueous products like toners/serums? Would the main issue be the pH drift? If I made a simple urea toner and checked the pH to make sure it doesn’t drift, would that indicate it is stable?

I found this pretty simple 4% urea serum on humblebeeandme:

https://www.humblebeeandme.com/soothing-hyaluronic-acid-facial-serum/

which is pretty much water, aloe, sodium lactate, Propanediol 1,3, preservative. Not sure if this would be stable or not.

I forgot to mention the buffer in my post because I wasn’t sure what the final pH would be and if it was necessary. I was thinking sodium lactate, lactic acid or gluconolactone.

[wannabe_chemist]

Thanks for the responses Sorry, I should have said I’m attempting to make a gel-cream. Lotioncrafter says Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6 (Sepimax zen on LC) emulsifies up to 25% oils with xanthan gum. I’ll definitely start on the lower side with the oil.

My face really hates any cleansers/antifungal shampoos so I try to avoid them. I’ve had luck with Hamilton urea cream (same ingredients as uremol 10 cream) but it has petrolatum in it. So, I need a cleanser to properly take it off. It makes my skin baby smooth and gets rid of any signs of SD but using a cleanser irritates my face so much. It’s so weird how everyone is different in what works for them! 

Gluconolacctone was something I was considering too, thanks From what I understand is that it has a pH drift toward alkaline and urea has a pH drift toward becoming acidic. Do you know what phase the gluconolacctone is added to? Can I just add it at the end?