[Thota]

 
Thanks so much for the response @EVchem.

Extra vessel for oil phase makes total sense. Sometimes we need validation when spending money. Some suppliers are even suggesting 3 phase vessel and can calling them ointment making machine - 1 for process, 1 for oil phase, 1 for water phase. 

I already have one jacketed vessel with conical bottom, I think i need to attach transfer pump to it. 

We fill, label and ship, so already considering a semi automatic cream filling machine and labelling machine.

@klangridge
Losing material while transfer and calculating loss is a big thing. Single phase vessel is anyones dream. But I discovered only conditioner and cleansing creams can be done so due to less oil content and more emulsifier content in them. 

I know some people are talking about single pot emulsions, but that is very emulsifier specific and doesn’t ensure great results compared to 2 phase process.

I am an industry outsider. Never been to a cosmetic manufacturing plant but a small business owner who wants to set up my own unit rather than outsource it to others. Most of the stuff are learnt online through various courses. 

So always figuring out stuff. 

[Thota]

I am also stuck with this kind of decision, need to order 100kg process vessel for my creams. 
What is CFD Company?

[Thota]

Thanks a lot @MarkBroussard,

I am not trying to reduce the cost but the % of sodium benzoate for the purpose of lesser reaction on skin.  A small % of our customers are getting reaction to PE 9010.

Phenethyl Alcohol  is very similar to phenoxyethanol so guessing people who react to Phenoxyethanol react to Phenethy Alcohol.

Blend caprylyl glycol,EHG MOQ is 10 Kgs+ , But I can get them separately. 

Not sure if blend Benzyl Alcohol, Ethylhexylglycerin will be less irritant that PE 9010. 

Also Spectrastat not yet accessable. But also read that Caprylhydroxamic Acid can cause irritations(can be false info on internet)

Hope my search for less reactive preservative ends soon. 

By the way I have Nipagaurd SCE  (Sorbitan Caprylate, Propanediol, Benzoic Acid), but its turning my translucent gels turn opaque. If there is no other option then I will go for this. Because Benzoic acid is just 15% of whole.

[Thota]

@Perry, Sadly customers are half educated these days, I would love to use parabens, but I dont want to take a risk of consumer perception. As small brands those will be our differentiating factors.

@Doreen, dont know if Germaben I and II are better tolerated than phenoxyethanol. Some of my customer base are like natural soap and Oil kind of women and some of them are totally into 5-6 step routine. No wonder they react to water based stuff with preservatives.

And thank you so much for the Sodium Levulinate info. Sounds very promising to me. Also wondering if my pH 3.8 lactic acid serum needs a preservative. I read that acids are preservatives but didn’t hear anything about lactic acid. 

And I have made a trail with Nipaguard SCE, My otherwise translucent gel turned to opaque white gel. But its so affordable. INCI: Sorbitan Caprylate, 1.3-Propanediol and Benzoic Acid.(benzoic acid at 0.15%).

Next trails will be with below Sensiva blends from Schulke,

1. Phenethyl alcohol, Ethylhexylglycerin 
2. Phenylpropanol, Propanediol, Caprylyl Glycol, Tocopherol
3. Phenethyl Alcohol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin
4. Propanediol (and) Phenethyl Alcohol (and) Undecyl Alcohol (and) Tocopherol

Hoping EHC and caprylyl glycol are problem free, But in some studies they proved to be irritants when used with Phenoxyethanol. 

[Thota]

Also I have access to blend Ethylhexylglycerin and caprylyl glycol. wondering if it is standalone. and would it better if I take them separately. 

[Thota]

@MarkBroussard thanks for the inputs
I dont have access to honeysuckle extracts and their prices too high. 
Pentylene Glycol + Phenylpropanol I have access to but havent tried them.

I make all oil free gels with Ph ranging from 3.8 to 6.5.

I was considering Ethylhexylglycerin and can u tell me what other preservatives will complement it?

[Thota]

ngarayeva001 said:

Vitamin C serum (LAA?), AHA peel, BHA peel are all supposed to be low pH products. PE 9010 doesn’t perform  well under low pH.

We make SAP serum at pH 6.5 and now trying to replace phenoxyethanol as one of the customer experienced a reaction to it. 

[Thota]

Sponge said:

But all preservatives kill microbes, and by nature they are irritating to the skin.

Perhaps a bit of a false premise? I’m not debating that certain preservatives irritate certain individuals, but the way it’s written it reads “preservatives (by method of killing microbes) irritate the skin.” As in, antimicrobials irritate skin solely based on the fact they’re antimicrobial. Hope I’m making sense. 

This is what I read somewhere and believed it to be true.
Also I wonder if the skin flora is disturbed by preservatives.

Hope I really find non irritating preservatives.

[Thota]

Dr Catherine Pratt said:

@Thota I agree with @Microformulation use Sodium Phytate and yes I believe you can use Sodium Benzoate but you need to adjust the pH down. What ingredient is making it so high?

@ Dr Catherine sodium ascorbyl phosphate seems to cause discoloration at pH below 6 and the supplier mentions that its most stable at pH 6.5-7

Also wanted to know if there is any problem with LA to bring down the pH. I dont have sodium phytate at hand.

[Thota]

What preservative are using?
I am making SAP serum and using lactic acid to bring the ph to 6.5
And I used to use PE 9010 but now am searching hard to replace it. 
Will Sodium Benzoate work at pH 6.5?
What preservative will work for something at this pH?

[Thota]

Thanks Jonah Ray,

We make Vitamin C serum, BHA serum, AHA serum, a gel cream for oily skin and a face oil. I know And we recommend layering them at different timings.

We use PE 9010 in all of them. And max allowed % of phenoxyethanol is 1% in a product. But customers layer 3 products. We suspect the phenoxyethanol load is causing irritation or reactions on sensitive skin.

We have few alternative optins with Sodium Benzoate and Benzoic Acid like, 

• Sorbitan Caprylate) and propanediol, Sodium Benzoate (nipagaurd sce) Ph 4-7
• Gluconolactone, Sodium Benzoate, Calcium Gluconate - Geogard Ultra, pH of 3.0 to 6.5
• Benzyl Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Glycerin, Sorbic Acid - Geogard ECT 

Wondering if benzoic acid preservatives cause lesser reactions than phenoxyethanol. Did anyone have any idea with this.

[Thota]

Hi Katelowen,
Have u used Nipaguard SCE, did it cause any color changes?

[Thota]

Gunther said:

How do you know for sure that glycerin is 15%?
Did you have the product tested at a chemical or chromatography lab? 

My guess is that glycerin is more like 5%

I have not tested the product, but the website itself mentions 15% glycerin and customers rave about it- non drying body wash in a non premium market.

[Thota]

]pepe said:

Phenoxyethanol in the PE9010 could be the reason. 

Thanks, I will eliminate it and see. 

[Thota]

Belassi,

It think its famous in Australia and has good reviews. They also have a 60% glycerin body wash for very dry skin. And their price is just $13 USD for 500ml bottle which is a mass market Product. https://www.qvskincare.com.au/product/qv-intensive-moisturising-cleanser

I am going to try make both 15% glycerin and 60% glycerin and see how it goes. And sticky does it, really matter in a bodywash. 

And also 15% glycerin is much less costly than 1% Panthenol and 60% glycerin is less costly than 2% Panthenol. (I use 2% Panthenol in my facewash). A

Obviously I am trying to develop something for very dry skin.

[Thota]

Hi Belassi,

Thanks for reply,I dont have a vacuum mixer yet. Planning to invest in 100L  vaccum mixer very soon, may be in 6months. 

Product I am trying to dupe is,
https://www.qvskincare.com.au/product/qv-gentle-body-wash
Always wanted to make a body wash very rich in glycerin. As I am a seasoned soapmaker (coldprocess) and never found a bodywash as moisturising as my Castile soaps. I know that pH of soap is bad, so this what I am trying to achieve, skin friendly pH product with loads of glycerin.

Sure they must be blends, But I have CAPB and SCI at hand. As I use them in a facewash. and can easily get Sodium Cocoamphodiacetate and Sarcosinate in smaller quantities. Investing in blends may be a future thing.

Also I am sure surfs are listed according to %active. so I would go with first option.