[thebrain]

@haxtone: I don’t have access to that site. I’m curious too; is there any functional difference?

[thebrain]

@AuroraBorealis: FYI, it’s been 10 days now since I made the body wash with 9% SCI and it’s still clear. The temperature is about 73F right now. I’m curious to find out what happens when it drops below 70, since I’ve heard that’s when SCI tends to recrystalize.

[thebrain]

If you tell us the purpose of this cleaner, it would make it easier to help you. For example, if this is a shampoo, you probably want somewhere between 25-40% surfactants. Usually a blend is preferred over a single surfactant, both for performance and to improve mildness.

[thebrain]

My understanding is that an amphoteric will carry a positive or negative charge depending on the pH; that’s why I asked about the pH when it thickened. IIRC, it should be cationic if the pH is below 6, or anionic if it’s above 8. I’m not sure what it is when it’s in-between. In my limited experience though, usually you get separation or other unpleasant behavior when you combine opposite charges; I didn’t know that the reaction would form salts.

[thebrain]

@Belassi: Thanks for sharing. Any ideas why that might occur? What was the pH?

[thebrain]

@MarkBroussard: The general claim appears to be that the combination of coco and decyl glucosides produces anionic-like foam characteristics, but they go on to list a thickener and preservative system to complete several possible formulations. I’m just unclear as to where the patent begins and ends, and what I can work with, without infringing on the patent.

[thebrain]

I’ve worked with all those surfactants, and it looks like your formula has some redundancy in there; any chance you can reduce the surfactants? IMO I would use the polyglucose/lactylate mix OR the coco glucoside mix, not both. I also see Lamesoft PO 65 in there… how much are you using? The viscosity increases rapidly with pH, and my understanding is that it can be finicky. Did it turn into jelly before or after you added the salt?

[thebrain]

I guess my question is this: Does it matter what kind of acid you are using to neutralize the SD? Is the SD to acid ratio important, or is it really a matter of adjusting your water phase to a specific pH before combining with SD?

I got the idea of melting the SD in the surfactant phase here:
http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/CleanLocks/1047

My understanding is that SD is supposed to be an alternative to dimethicone, but I did not notice any conditioning effect at 1%. I don’t know if that’s because there was an error in my process, or if I simply didn’t use enough SD.

[thebrain]

Oh that would be interesting. I did my homework and the literature says that it shouldn’t recrystalize if it’s dissolved in akyl glucosides, but we’ll see! I’ll come back here and post the final results.

[thebrain]

I’m going to take a wild guess here, but maybe the goat’s milk powder was contaminated with mold spores after the first sample was produced. The easiest way to find out would be to ask them to use GM from an unopened container, or if they don’t have it, you can send them a small sealed bag (since we’re talking small quantities anyway).

[thebrain]

FWIW I just made a body wash with SCI 9% and it was crystal clear. This was unexpected because when I was melting the SCI in the surfactant phase it was a thick white paste; however, once the water phase was incorporated, it turned out to be a golden clear viscous liquid.

[thebrain]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like Silverson’s advantage is their probes-they have a 2-stage system that breaks down larger particles and then breaks them down again into a much smaller dispersion. Is that right? If so, I wonder why nobody else is doing the same thing. When I went on IKA’s website to look at their homogenizers, they specifically mention that you often have to change the probe to break larger particles into smaller ones. I don’t know if that really applies with cosmetics though.

Finding a used Silverson is a real PITA

[thebrain]

I like EWG-they helped me get started in doing my own formulations. I put a few of the products I was using at home in their search engine, and was shocked to see all the warnings. That led me to making my own products and researching the ingredients to verify the claims that were made both by the manufacturers and EWG. I agree that EWG is often wrong, but they aren’t a bad starting point. An intelligent consumer should never take anything at face value, and do their own research (or am I asking too much?).

[thebrain]

Let’s say I bought a Silverson L4 without the probe. Where would I get that piece? It seems like the probe is often more expensive than the motor.

[thebrain]

@Perry thanks for the info. I just assumed that would be the case, but I appreciate the confirmation.

I added the glycerin because I use it to pre-mix the sclerotium gum. It makes my life a lot easier when that stuff doesn’t clump. I also read that it supposedly boosts foam, which is why I was surprised when Bob said it does the opposite. I guess I have some experimenting to do!

Thanks for the help, everyone.

[thebrain]

Would either of you mind answering my first question, just for my own education? Is mixing anionics with cationics a bad idea, or is it sometimes permissible?

[thebrain]

@Bobzchemist, I’ll try that, thanks. Am I assuming correctly that I can’t use anionics and cationics together? Is there anything else that I can add to boost foam, e.g. sodium cocoamphoacetate?

[thebrain]

I’d like to try GLDA, but it doesn’t look like it’s sold at any e-tailers (e.g. lotioncrafter, theherbarie, etc.). Cosmetic chemistry is still a hobby of mine, so I’m only buying in tiny quantities. Does anyone know where I can get some?

If GLDA is a no-go, can anyone comment on the efficacy of these chelators, in comparison to GLDA and/or EDTA:

• Phytic acid
• Glucono delta-lactone (GDL)
• Trisodium Ethylenediamine disuccinate

The last two are the easiest to get. I’d have to buy in bulk off of ebay for the phytic acid.

Thanks for helping @MarkBroussard and @ozgirl.

[thebrain]

@MarkBroussard

Thank you for explaining. One last question: Do you know of any research or other data source that compares chelators? I’ve been able to look up these chemicals individually, but I haven’t been able to find a comparison. It’s hard to make a decision on which chemicals to use if there is no benchmark comparison.

[thebrain]

@MarkBroussard

May I ask why you suggest using another chelator with citric acid? Is there a synergy by using more than one? I already use 0.4-0.5% citric acid to adjust the pH to ~5.0. I added EDTA because it didn’t occur to me that citric acid was already chelating for me, and I wanted something to boost the efficiency of my “natural” preservative. I’d like to drop the EDTA because my customers don’t like it (I’ve already made my case that it’s safe).

Thanks for your help.

[thebrain]

The BioSpec BioHomogenizer is a bit pricey. It’s only rated at 100W output for intermittent use. Would that be good enough for up to 1000ml cosmetics, including viscous emulsions? Is it really much better than a stick blender?

How about an overhead stirrer recommendation? I’d like to keep it under $500 if possible.

[thebrain]

Thanks, guys. I will give it a shot and report back later… perhaps this weekend when I have some free time.

One last question: When you have used HEC in the past, was it completely clear after mixing, i.e. was it like thickened water, with absolutely no particles floating in it? Even when I dissolved HEC in water alone, I could just barely make out dust-like particles, and I’m not sure if that’s normal, or an indication that it wasn’t completely dissolved.

[thebrain]

CosChemFan: I don’t have any of those things, but I’ll consider it if I can’t get anywhere with HEC. HEC was appealing to me because it seemed to have no incompatibilities with anything.

Bill_Toge & CosChemFan: I tried stick blending the HEC with heated water (~70-75C), and it thickened after cooling. The stick blending created a lot of bubbles/foam, so I waited a day before attempting to make shampoo again. When I was ready, I had a separate beaker for the water+HEC solution and surfactant+everything else. After I raised the temperature to 70-75C, I noticed the HEC had separated and formed clumps that floated to the top. Stirring with a spoon didn’t help, so then I poured it into the beaker with the other ingredients, and stick blended it.

Anyway, my point is that I think after stick blending the HEC solution and waiting for a day or more, it should have been properly hydrated, right? I have never been able to get HEC+water completely clear though… under close inspection I can still see very tiny dust-like particles, but this doesn’t separate until I mix it into my shampoo.

It sounds like maybe next time I should: Spoon mix the HEC in 50% of my water an hour before making shampoo, and use the other 50% water to mix with the other ingredients, then apply heat, and once I’ve reached 70C, mix everything together? OR, keep the surfactant separate from HEC+everything else until…when? I can’t wait for it to be clear because of the oat powder. I suppose I could leave it out for troubleshooting.

Sorry for rambling, this has been really annoying. Thanks for the help.